Genealogy Chat

tell me what you think

1871 RG10 618 56 p.19 121 Portland Street, Newington, Surrey Louisa Matthews 33 widow head cowkeeper John 19 Long Compton son cowman Louisa 13 Walsworth daur no occupation given Richard b. Walsworth age 9 scholar Henry John 6 scholar >>>>Joseph 3 no occupation Edwin Josh Smith 3 visitor no occupation 1881 RG11 0546 19 p.11/12 56 Portland Street, Newington Lucy A. Matthews, widow, shop keeper 43 b. Bermondsey Louisa Matthews, machinist 23 b Surrey, Newington Richard E. Matthews, 19 labeller b Surrey, Newington Henry J. Matthews, 16 labeller b Surrey, Newington >>>Mary Matthews 13 b scholar Surrey, Newington where is Joseph from 1871 and where is Mary in 1871?

Hmmmm....there is a birth reg for Joseph, but I can't see one for Mary! I have a boy called Arthur who is on the census as Martha.....know this isn't the same though!!!...... Merry

certainly looks like it nell perhaps they thought she was a boy?? then found out she wasnt! or she was a boy but had an accident! doesnt bare thinking about I have an euphemia (f) who becoms and Ephraim (m) i think but this could have been a transcribers mistake, yours 2 names couldnt be confused

I had this happen to my great great great gma she was down as James in her first census christened as James but then was Jane and obviously a girl, all I can think is they were unsure at the time of birth..ODD though but I know she was definatly born James and Christened James but in later censuses she was Jane and married. Zoe

Yes hard to make that mistake isnt it - unless the enumerator was thinking of a nativity play at the time. There isnt a Mary next family up or down is there - Ive often had wrong names where I assume the guy back at the office has lost concentration and started copying from the wrong household.

1891 census View Record Joseph W Matthews abt 1868 Walworth, Surrey, England Son Newington St Mary London View Record Louisa Matthews abt 1838 Bermondsey, Surrey, England Head Newington St Mary London

View Record Joseph William Matthews 1867 Oct-Nov-Dec Newington London, Surrey

Jim Thank you for the 1891 entry, I had the birth for Joseph, but wasn't sure it was mine. As he is with mother Louisa, I guess he's the right chap, but doesn't explain who Mary is, aged 13 (can't be Joseph!) Maybe the enumerator was a bit alcoholically challenged? nell

Hi Nell, I have a Sophia that becomes Stephen 10 years later, can't find a birth entry for Stephen! I can only think human error? Maybe the enumerator had a bit to drink the night before, during or had glass in one hand and quill in the other? I don't know.... maybe he though aaahhh in years to come ' this i'll keep em guessing' LOL.

Well, as its been so often pointed out, it is really amazing just how much is pretty accurate. You have people who perhaps can barely read or write having a go at filling in the form, or they wait for the enumerator and then give information about places etc that they cant spell, then back to the office where the forms are handed over to another clerk to go through copying and making those little marks identifying different industries etc. So there are just so many opportunities for a c**k up arent there, that I think we do pretty well.

My best friend's aunt Flo is (we think!) on the 1901 as Clarence. The matter is compounded by an age given as 8 when we thought it was 18 months. That enumerator was definitely away with the fairies and his entries are full of errors. But Mary for Joseph? Even my handwriting isn't that bad! As a matter of interest, was Louisa the mother always Louisa? Lucy A looks like something misheard.

I can't think how Joseph could become Mary but I spent ages looking for a Paul with middle initial E only to find that he'd become Polly in the next census and Florence became Horace. I think the first would be caused by accent and the other by handwriting. Heather

Don't forget that there are syndromes in which the gender of a child is genuinely unclear. I don't have the medical knowledge to go into detail, but it's the stuff of occasional sensational programmes and articles in the media. It's not relevant to this particular case, but I recall reading (years ago) about a village in South America where there was one woman who had been an ancestor to many of them, and for most the gender was unclear until puberty. It was just accepted there that that is how it is. Christine

My theory, for what it is worth; Mum was out when enumerator called so the information was provided by Richard. Now 19 year old elder brothers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just to show that I wasn't dreaming: Visit NHS Direct Online at www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk. NHS Direct Online Health Encyclopaedia ****Androgen insensitivity syndrome Introduction Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is a genetic condition that affects the development of the external male genitals and reproductive organs. Every embryo, whether genetically male (XY) or female (XX), initially has the capacity to develop either a male or female external reproductive system. After a few weeks in an XY foetus, without AIS, male genitals develop under the influence of male hormones (androgens). In AIS, the foetus has male (XY) sex chromosomes but the X chromosome is either: * completely androgen insensitive (CAIS) - when the external genitals take a female form, or * partially androgen insensitive (PAIS) when the external genital appearance lies somewhere between male and female. Individuals with AIS have a functioning Y sex chromosome and male internal sex organs (testes instead of womb, ovaries and fallopian tubes), but a fault on the X sex chromosome that leaves the body completely or partially unable to recognise the androgens produced so the external organs are female or indeterminate. Symptoms In AIS, although the body is insensitive to androgens, it is responsive to oestrogens, and is affected by the small amount of oestrogen produced by the testes or by the oestrogen replacement therapy given if the testes are removed before puberty. When there is CAIS the outward appearance is completely female and individuals are invariably brought up as girls however they have are no ovaries, fallopian tubes or uterus and the vagina is shorter than normal or absent. Internally they have un-descended testes which don’t work. In CAIS female development takes place at puberty but there is no menstruation (periods) and no possibility of conceiving children. At puberty there will therefore be normal female breast development but minimal pubic or body hair. The genital appearance of newborns with PAIS varies; many babies are brought up as girls, although some with a more male genital appearance may be brought up as boys. Causes Approximately a third of cases of AIS occur due to spontaneous mutation (change) in the egg. The other cases follow a line of inheritance through the mother. There is a defect in the androgen receptor gene on the X chromosome, the inheritance is X-linked recessive. Mothers who carry the gene have, in each pregnancy: * a 25% chance of having a normal son (XY), * a 25% chance of having a child with AIS (XY), * a 25% chance of having a normal daughter (XX), * a 25% chance of having a daughter who is a carrier of the gene (XX). As explained above, the child with AIS will be a daughter in the case of CAIS, and may be a son or a daughter in the case of PAIS.

Much more likely to be a mistake by the enumerator, like my Arthur / Bertha (goes back to being Arthur on the next one). Kate.

Yep - same thing here - 1881 census, my g grandma is down as Zelpher, nephew! her name was Zilpha - and from the amount of children she had, definitely a girl! lol