Genealogy Chat

see below.

Pulvis et umbra sumus Memento mori. Dodo Dudley chiliarchi nobilis Edwardi nuper domini de Dudley filius, patri charus et regiae Majestatis fidissimus subditus et servus in asserendo regein, in vindicartdo ecclesiam, in propugnando legem ac libertatem Anglicanam, saepe captus, anno 1648, semel condemnatus et tamen non decollatus, renatum denuo vidit diadaema hic inconcussa semper virtute senex. Differt non aufert mortem longissima vita Sed differt multam cras hodiere mori. Quod nequeas vitare, fugis: Nec formidanda est. Can anyone give a rough translation from this memorial inscription?

from http://www.translation-guide(.)com/free_online_translators.php?from=English&to=Latin Dust and shade are Memento(remembered?) to die. Dodo Dudley chiliarchi (sing?) celebrity Edwardi newly demesne about Dudley son , fatherland affectionate and to be ruled Majestatis fidissimus (we are seeing? )subject and servant upon asserendo (a stake/pole ?)I was ruling , upon vindicartdo (I;m seeing?) church , upon propugnando (defence?) legem and freedom Anglicanam , sepe (often) taken , yearly produce 1648, a single time condemnatus and nothwithstanding not decollatus renatum anew vidit diadaema (something about Devil?) this firm always valor senis(old?). Stuffed full not to take away by force mortem longissima life But stuffed full long tomorrow of today to die. And worthless life , to flee : And not formidanda (terror?)is. sorry its not very good

Thank you for that. Any translation is better than the guesses I was trying to make.

Hi Helen, I've e-mailed it to a friend who is a classics teacher but she won't get it till Tuesday. Janice

Thank you Janice, that's really good of you (not sure your friend will think so LOL)

'Pulvis et umbra sumus. Memento mori' is a quote from Horace (I think). It means 'We are dust and shadow. Remember that you are mortal'. The rest comes from a book about Dud Dudley, right? There are several quotes from it on the Internet, but none of them seem to have translated the inscription, and I'm afraid my Latin doesn't run to that.

I suspect there are some clues in this web-page: http://www.*cofe-st-thomas-dudley.org.uk/ master.php?page_title=Reformation+and+Commonwealth (remove the * and the Return-stroke) In particular, it refers to Dud Dudley, natural son of Edward Dudley. Christine

Memento mori means 'remember you must/will die'. The ancient Romans, when honouring their heroes, paid someone to run alongside him in big parades, whispering this in his ear, so that he didn't get too inflated an idea of his own importance. memento mori is used as a remembrance that we all die, sometimes people would be painted in portraits with a skull or other object representing death. nell

here's a specific reference to that memorial: http://www.nimblewisdom.*com/Iron_Workers_and_Tool_Makers/ CHAPTER_III_IRON_SMELTING_BY_PIT_COAL_DUD_DUDLEY (remove * and Return-stroke) Christine

I've had another look (can't find our big recently-acquired Latin Dictionary to check detail just now) Pulvis et umbra sumus We are dust and shadow Memento mori. Remember you will die Dodo Dudley chiliarchi nobilis Edwardi nuper domini de Dudley filius, To Dodus Dudley son of [chiliarchi] noble Edward Lord Dudley patri charus et regiae Majestatis fidissimus subditus et servus in asserendo regein, dear of the father and and most faithful subject of His Majesty [in asserendo regein], in vindicartdo (vindicando?) ecclesiam, vindicated in the church in propugnando legem ac libertatem Anglicanam, defender of Anglican law and liberty saepe captus, often caught anno 1648, in the year 1648 semel condemnatus et tamen non decollatus, at the same time condemned but not executed (?) renatum denuo vidit diadaema hic inconcussa semper virtute senex. [renatum denuo] the old man will see the crown (diadem) this uncrushed(?) always by strength Differt non aufert mortem longissima vita The longest life [differt non aufert] death (fero, ferre, tuli, latum is the verb to carry - Hence Christopher/Christofer carried Christ - and the dif/au look like to/fro prefixes) Sed differt multam cras hodiere mori. But [differt] many tomorrow, [hodiere] you will die (hodie = today) Quod nequeas vitare, fugis: What [nequeas] to live, will flee; Nec formidanda est. Nor is it to be feared. Strictly work-in-progress at this stage - the meaning could change radically if the word-endings have been misunderstood. Remembering that word-order in Latin is relatively unimportant because a word's status in the sentence is indicated by its ending. Christine

By far the best translation site is Whoohoo,co,uk. You should all check it out then bookmark it. (change commas to stops)

Paul, The site you mention - info please. Whilst I find scouse, jordi + brummie fascinating languages - have I missed something on this site or is it purely for fun? Dea x

Made you look, though, didn't I Dea? I do think it's a hilarious site though, and the translations really work.

The national archive site has an online latin course at the momment.

Thank you everybody, just caught up with your replies. Yes this is Dud Dudley, not a direct ancestor but his sister was possibly my 10G Gran. He quite an interesting bloke, his Dad was a Baron and his Mum was the Baron's mistress. His G Grandad was probably my 13G Grandad through another line. This is all 14th/15th C so hard to find info and what you do find is conflicting. Paul, had a go on your translator site, it get's it right! It's Yorkshire's almost as broad as mine.

14th/15th C!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Wish I could get that far! I did Latin GCSE but most of that is beyond me.

Hi Helen, This is the reply from my friend. Janice Janice, This was fun!! Some odd Latin here, definitely not classical, but something along the lines of: We are dust and shadow. Remember you must die. Dodo(?) Dudley son of the noble commander(?) / minister (?) Edward, recently lord of Dudley, dear to his father and most faithful subject and servant to the kingdom of our majesty in protecting (?) the king ( Note not sure of this bit - are you certain about 'regein'?), in delivering the church, in fighting in defence of the law and the freedom of England(?) / Anglican church(?), often captured, in the year 1648, at the same time condemned but not beheaded, this old man saw the crown born again a second time, unshaken in his courage. A very long life puts off but does not do away with death, but to die today puts off much tomorrow. Flee what you are unable to avoid. It should not be dreaded.

'Semel' means 'once' (ie. on one occasion) as well as 'at the same time', so I'd guess that 'semel condemnatus et tamen non decollatus' means 'he was convicted once, but not executed'.

Thank you everybody for your help.The translation fully describes the life of Dud Dudley, if interested see below an extract of some details about his life from 'Iron Workers and Tool Makers' by Samuel Smiles Dud Dudley was born in 1599, the natural son of Edward Lord Dudley of Dudley Castle in the county of Worcester. He was the fourth of eleven children by the same mother, who is described in the pedigree of the family given in the Herald’s visitation of the county of Stafford in the year 1663, signed by Dud Dudley himself, as 'Elizabeth, daughter of William Tomlinson of Dudley, concubine of Edward Lord Dudley. He was studying at Baliol College, Oxford, in the year 1619, when the Earl sent for him to take charge of an iron furnace and two forges in the chase of Pensnet in Worcestershire. He was no sooner installed manager of the works, than, feeling hampered by the want of wood for fuel, his attention was directed to the employment of pit-coal as a substitute. He succeeded in proving the practicability of smelting iron with fuel made from pit-coal, which so many before him had tried in vain. He obtained a patent for the invention from King James. Patent (No. 18), dated the 22nd February, 1620, was taken out in the name of Lord Dudley himself. The patent had scarcely been secured when the Civil War broke outand Dud seems for a time to have abandoned his iron-works and followed entirely the fortunes of the king. He proceeded to raise 200 men, mostly at his own charge. They were, however, no sooner mustered in Bosco Bello woods near Madeley, than they were attacked by the Parliamentarians, and dispersed or taken prisoners. Dud was among those so taken. Dudley and Major Elliotts contrived to break out of gaol, making their way over the tops of the houses, afterwards passing the guards at the city gates, and escaping into the open country and on to London. They were captured and both were taken before Sir John Warner, the Lord Mayor and were summarily sentenced to be shot to death. The day before their intended execution, the prisoners formed a plan of escape. It was Sunday morning, the 20th August, 1648, when they seized their opportunity, 'at ten of the cloeke in sermon time;' and, overpowering the gaolers, Dudley, with Sir Henry Bates, Major Elliotts, Captain South, Captain Paris, and six others, succeeded in getting away. Dudley reached Bristol in safety. When the King had been executed, and the royalists were finally crushed at Worcester, Dud gradually emerged from his concealment. He was still the sole possessor of the grand secret of smelting iron with pit-coal. A few years later, he seems to have succeeded in obtaining the means of prosecuting his original invention; for in his Metallum Martis, published in 1665, he describes himself as living at Green’s Lodge, in Staffordshire; and he says that near it are four forges, Green’s Forge, Swin Forge, Heath Forge, and Cradley Forge, where he practises his 'perfect invention.' He seems eventually to have retired to St. Helen’s in Worcestershire, where he died in 1684, in the 85th year of his age.