Genealogy Chat

Well, as Booth says, lots of alleys and courts.

I just checked the 1862 map on MOTCO and found Moss Alley and Pitts Place, but not Taylors Yard or Noah's Ark Alley. There are a number of short unnamed roads/lanes around Moss Alley which might be the ones that you're looking for, or perhaps the map is simply too old. Still, you might want to take a look and get a feel for the general area. If you go to the MOTCO main page, click on 'MAPS - REFERENCE DATABASE', then choose 'London and Its Suburbs 1862', and click on 'ROAD & STREET INDEX' in the left-hand frame (this takes a minute or two to load, even with broadband). There are two Sumner Streets listed (as well as two Summer Streets) - choose the one that has '(16,14)' after the name. When the image loads, you should see Moss Alley in the upper left area of the map, just east of Love Lane. Pitts Place crosses Moss Alley at right angles. Enjoy - Tim

If you have found it on a census, go back to that ref. Ancestry has descriptions of enumeration districts on the site. They are not self-evident, but from memory, if you click a link at the top, giving the number of the enumeration district, this will lead to the description. These would say something like: the north side of the high street from west street to mill lane, including all of cross street, blind alley etc. Hopefully, at least one of the major roads will be still recognisable. The Godfrey maps are really the best to explore major cities as they are so detailed. There are potentially three different editions: the one circa 1894 is likely to be the most useful to you.

You can try MOTCO (http://www.motco(dot)com/) - they have an 1862 map (scale six inches to the mile I believe) that you can view online. The online street index only has 5,000 names (those which end in 'Street' or 'Road') but if you can figure out which Streets or Roads are closest to the Lane, Alley, Row, etc... you're looking for, you should be able to find it. If you want to buy the CD (around £28), it has an 18,000 name index. Tim

Moss Alley (sounds like its not far from Southwark Bridge Road) 'West along Park Street and Sumner Street and North into Moss Alley and attendant courts. 2 st. marked Dark Blue and Black on map. A little village by itself. Men employed in Phoenix gasworks and waterside. Not so bad as it used to be'. 'There is in this round a set of courts and small streets which for number, viciousness, poverty and crowding is unrivalled in anything I have hitherto seen in London' NB Dark Blue on Map = very poor, casual, chronic want. Black = lowest class, vicious, semi criminal

Have just looked at the 1881 census for Noah's Ark Alley and found it under the Ecclesiastical district of St Peter's, Southwark. Well, St Peter's church is still there and it comes under Walworth, Southwark. Walworth Road leads off from Elephant and Castle and about half way down is Liverpool Grove, where St Peter's is situated. So, we are narrowing it down a bit I suppose. It must have been a really tiny street as there were only 7 families living there! Heather - some of the surrounding streets are White Horse Alley, Moss Alley, Ladds Court, Pitts Place, Bankside, amongst others. Don't suppose you can find any of those on your notes at all, can you? I'll check my old maps when I get home to see if they are there anywhere.

Oh, now I have the damn book out of teachests - anyone want any road looked up for its description in South East London late 19th century?

Honest Lee, best place to email would be Southwark archives. The archivist there is brilliant and he could probably tell you where they would have been.

yes i found them both on Gendocs Athena, but would like to know generely where they are in what area? so sorry about the hernia heather take it easy, have a cup of coffee! its not worth getting a hernia over.

Well having given myself a hernia, sad to say neither of those show up in the index. They must be very tiny little places. Probably off a bigger road.

Why dont you go to Southwarks family history site and send them an email or to Southwark Archives site? Ive got my Charles Booth book packed away cos we are renovating, but Ill go see if its near the top of one of the boxes and get back to you.

Also, on the Gendocs, Victorian Streets webpage... Noahs Ark Alley, St Saviour, Southwark, ST SAVIOUR SOUTHWARK [1881] I have a feeling this would be around the Borough area. Actually up Borough High Street, there are lots of old, narrow, side streets that end in 'Yard' or 'Alley'...

I bought several old maps from the Alan Godfrey collection. They are only £2.20 each and mine took only a few days to arrive. Here's their webshop address: http://www(.)alangodfreymaps(.)co.uk/acatalog/ (remove brackets) In the search box on the top righthand if you type in Southwark it will give you a list of all the ones they have that cover that area for different years. Regards

i can find it on google but no mention of where it actally is.

Noahs Ark Alley, St Saviour, Southwark, ST SAVIOUR SOUTHWARK [1881] I am only finding this on google.

its all i have from a census file.

yes that sounds like it

Noah's ark alley, Narrow street, Ratcliffe !

Hi Carol, iam looking for two places that existed in 1899, one was taylors yard which sounds like a docks area, and noah's ark alley, the other.

Where in Southwark are you looking for, I was born and lived most of my life in that area.