Genealogy Chat

Can anyone tell me how to get hold of said please ?

Have a death in 1977 ..... and although I was part of the family, only a teenager at the time, I wonder if I can get a full copy of either/both ? I was told only on a need to know basis - I actually read the details in the local paper .... Would the full report on Post Mortem and the inquest give me more details than reported in the paper ?? and if so, how do I obtain these please ? Elaine ;-)

morning elaine-I guess it is available to next of kin if that helps.

Well that certainly helps ...... Should I presume one would have been issued to the next of kin when the death/inquest accured? The husband is now deceased and I have no way of contacting HIS new family, so presume that any info would have been disposed off now anyway. Just been googling on the internet and have found the phone number to the Coroners Office .... should I ring them do you think ? Elaine ;-)

I'm ringing them !!!!! They can only tell me to contact someone else can't they !!! Elaine ;-)

NOW I AM FUMING ..... That Coroner has since retired. His files were sent to this particular office .. BUT ..... quite a few were MISSING, and the earliest file they have is 1980 and there is only ONE for that year. They are only legally bound to keep the files for 15 years anyway. 'Should I assume that there are NO existing records for this particular death then ANYWHERE ?? ' 'Yes, unfortunately you should ' there are no other records logged anywhere I'm afraid ' So thats the Coroners Office sorted ........ ( Inquest ???) Would the Post Mortem have been done somewhere else ? I haven't the faintest idea if there is a difference between the two ?? Elaine ;-(((((

elaine, in my experience ( i worked in a mortuary once and have seen about 80 dead people!!) .....the coroner would mostly come to the hospital where a body was kept to carry out the PM.....so that would narrow the field down a bit....I would be very surprised if files pertaining to a murder would be dumped after 15 years.....you hear of cases being reopened etc...the police would surely have a record. An inquest is the stage after the post mortem if needed.

A post mortem is carried out on everyone that has not seen a doctor in the last 2 weeks before death or that hasnt had a recognised recorded terminal illness or condition known to his/her GP.

So, the Post Mortem is done at the hospital (by the Pathologist I presume ?) ...... then the Coroner ( in this case the Deputy Coroner) goes to the hospital to get the report ? ..........and then an inquest is held .. If I'm right so far .., then the Inquest report is no longer available ....... but can I assume that the Post Mortem details may be logged somewhere - fingers crossed !! It wasn't a Murder ..... just an unexpected death. She choked on her own vomit ... cos she was drunk ! Asphixia due to inhilation of vomit was the verdict in the paper. Elaine ;-) Thanks for this help Alter ... x Don't know how you could be close to a dead body ... I'd be frightened stiff

No the Queens Coroner (QC) does them all,by coming to the hospital ....there will be a fridge with a theatre come bay that has a few slabs there for examination.....just one person. Coroner = the bloke who opens the rib cageup,etc..

So ....' NO '.. to details of the actual Post Mortem details still being available then ? Pooooooohhh. Need some divine intervention here ... :-((((((((

OK ....now I'm with it. The Coroner IS the one who I wanted the info from ..... and his files are missing. STAMPS out the room in sheer frustration ........ What can I throw and brake that I don't want or need any more ??? Sons punch bag is a good option ! Thanks Alter, you have been brill (as usual) Elaine ;-)

I think there is a little bit of confusion here. The CORONER does not do the actual post mortem. That is done by a pathologist, who is usually 'Home Office' appointed. The pathologist is obviously medically qualified. At this stage all you have is the actual medical reasons for the death. They do a written report that is forwarded to the Coroner's office. The Coroner is usually legally qualified. They read the report & decide if an inquest is necessary, to investigate the events surrounding the death. Note not all PMs result in inquests. The Coroner's files should include a copy of the pathologist's report, but actual details of this would probably not be included in the inquest report. There MAY also be a copy of the pathologist's report with the deceased's medical records, although without specialised medical knowledge they probably wouldn't be useful. IF the coroner's records survive, there is generally a 75 year closure. Note the coroner's report itself is usually fairly concise, and may not contain full details of all the circumstances. If there was an inquest (in public, but not always with a jury) there should be a full report. However, you are just as likely to get relevant details from a newspaper report.

Errmm,Im not going to contradict a good chunk of what you have there but i have worked alongside the QC= Queens Coroner,he did the actual opening up and medical bit- he would sometimes have an assistant ,or the assistant would do it on his days off-this was in Berkshire in a cottage hospital where the mortuary was at th back of the hospital. He was definitely a QC - and used to talk about some of the cases he had in the canteen !! It may vary from county to county but what I know to be true occured in Berkshire.

I found this website, which explains how things work now http://www.surreycoroner.info/workofcoroners.html#who I know in the past different counties had slightly different procedures, but I am not aware of any coroners who do PMs now. Surely that could prejudice the outcome of their report, as they are not only giving their opinion on the actual cause of death, but also deciding whether it might warrant further investigation?

OK. When I spoke on the phone, with the Coroners Office in question earlier, there didn't seem to be a problem about sending me a copy of the inquest ... but I DID have to write into them. (This was before I found out they didn't have the file in question !) I asked if they wanted confirmation of who I was ... ie Birth cert etc, but she said no ... BUT ... did I know when the Inquest took place ? ... I couldn't be precise, but gave her the time and date of actual death ... and the date the article went into the paper. I then also gave her the Coroners name, it was at this time she put me on hold to check the Coroners name. She then came back to me and told me that THAT Coroner was now retired and most of his files were missing and the earliest file for him was 1980 .... so the trail went cold. ~~~~~~~~~ I attended a 'meeting' at the local Police Station ...... which I now presume to be the Inquest Hearing ????. I also gave evidence at this 'meeting' ... the details of MY evidence was included in the newspaper article ..... but the ONLY info given in the paper was the cause of death ... which I already blickin well knew as I was with the deceased at time of death. ~~~~~~~~~~~ Sounds as if the Pathologist report went missing with the Coroners file then ..... Don't suppose they would have taken 'copies' would they for there own records perhaps ? maybe ?? .......... I can't believe that we can obtain such fantastic information about our Ancestors from the last century ... but that relatively new info can be 'LOST' ?????? Elaine ;-)

Vicky, Thanks for your input ....I'll go and have a nosey at that link you give. You have BOTH helped me enormously ..... and although I usually delete my threads when they get to page 10 !! or thereabouts ...I will leave this thread for others to read, as I can't see that I am the only person who knows nothing about this subject. Hope it helps someone else in a small way... Elaine ;-)

Hi Carol here, you have recently helped me on this case, so thought I would put on info how I received inquest report. Carolx I APPLIED FOR A COPY OF HER DEATH CERTIICATE AND FROM THAT I FOUND THE CAUSE OF DEATH WAS MURDER BY PERSON OR PERSONS UNKNOWN, (SHE WAS 23 YEARS OF AGE). I THEN TRIED TO OBTAIN COPIES OF LOUISA’S INQUEST, THE FUNNY THING WAS AS I WAS TOLD BY BERKSHIRE RECORDS OFFICE MOST INQUEST REPORTS BEFORE 1930 HAD BEEN DESTROYED AND THIS ONE WAS THE ONLY ONE REMAINING. I OBTAINED COPIES, AND ALSO NEWSPAPER REPORTS OF THE TIME, RECORDING THAT THERE HAD BEEN TWO INQUESTS, EVIDENCE FROM THE POLICE AND WITNESS REPORTS, AND WITNESS STATEMENTS. I LATER FOUND THAT SHE HAD 2 CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 4)... WILLIAM, MY FATHER BEING THE YOUNGEST, AND GEORGE HIS BROTHER 2 YEARS OLDER. (I had never heard of George until reading the inquest report.) I FOUND THAT ON THE DAY OF HER DISAPPERENCE SHE HAD TRAVELLED BY TRAIN TO SUNNINGDALE IN BERKSHIRE TO MEET AN AMERICAN WHO WAS STATIONED IN THE UK WITH THE CANADIAN EXPERDITIONARY FORCE. (Louisa’s husband my grandfather was away serving in the war.) AND ON THAT DAY SUNDAY 18TH AUGUST 1918 WHEN SHE FAILED TO RETURN TO HER ROOMS, HIS MOTHER AND HER AUNT WENT TO HER ROOMS AND FOUND A LETTER ADDRESSED “ DEAR LOUIE”, ARRANGING A MEETING AT SUNNINGDALE TRAIN STATION FROM A SERVICEMAN IN THE CANADIAN ARMY NAMED VANCE. HER BODY WAS FOUND FIVE WEEKS LATER BY A FARM LABOURER WHO WAS CUTTING FERN; IT WAS IN A WOOD ON THE CHARTERS ESTATE. THE WOOD WAS ENCLOSED ON THE ROAD SIDE BY A WOODEN FENCE ON THE LAND SIDE IT WAS OPEN, THE BODY COULD NOT BE SEEN FROM THE ROAD, VANCE WAS QUESTIONED BY THE POLICE BUT SAID IN HIS STATEMENT “HE HAD ARRIVED LATE AT THE STATION AND THAT LOUISA WAS NOT THERE SO HE LEFT”. LOUISA WAS FOUND IN A WOODED AREA LESS THAN ONE MILE FROM THE STATION—SHE HAD BEEN GAGGED WITH HER HANDKERCHIEF AND STRANGLED WITH HER OWN MACKINTOSH BELT, HER HANDBAG WAS MISSING. (Valuable items of jewellery were still with the body) THE POSTMORTEM EXAMINATION WAS CARRIED OUT IN THE OUTHOUSE AJOINING THE “NAG’S HEAD” PUBLIC HOUSE (by Robert Donaldson MD) Pathologist at the Royal Berkshire Hospital. VANCE TOLD THE POLICE THAT AS SHE HAD FAILED TO MEET HIM ON THE DATE IN QUESTION AND THAT HE DID NOT TRY TO CORRESPOND OR MAKE ANY OTHER CONTACT WITH HER. A PERSON NAMED EMMA GAGNON A FRIEND OF LOUISA ALSO GAVE EVIDENCE, “SAYING THAT LOUISA HAD VISITED HER HOUSE IN SUNNINGDALE ON PREVIOUS OCCASSIONS AND THE ONLY VISITOR SHE HAD WHILE AT THIS FRIEND’S WAS VANCE. EMMA SAID SHE HAD TOLD LOUISA THAT HER HUSBAND OBJECTED TO THESE MEETINGS AND THAT SHE WAS NOT TO MEET HIM THERE AGAIN. THE POLICE NOTES SAY VANCE WAS A SUSPECT AND THAT THEY HAD MET AT SUNNIGDALE ON PREVIOUS OCCASIONS BUT I EXPECT THAT AS IT WAS SOME FIVE WEEKS BETWEEN THE DATE OF DEATH AND THE BODY BEING FOUND THE POLICE EVIDENCE WAS NOT ABLE TO SHOW VANCE AS COMMITING THE MURDER, AND DNA MATCHING WAS NOT AVAILABLE AT THAT TIME. (Whether it was Vance or a passing stranger who had committed the murder is not known) WITNESSES Body Found by Joseph Chandler farm labourer. Dr.Chas.M. Wildridge Supt. Jannaway. Inspector Simmons. Margaret Lilian Silvester. Vance N******. LESS THAN ONE YEAR LATER IN 1919 VANCE TOOK A YOUNG BERKSHIRE BRIDE WITH HIM TO THE USA, HE DIED THERE IN 1962 Vance N******, spouse Florence P***** March 1919, married at Maidenhead Berks. SO THE MURDERER IS UNKNOWN! BUT WITH THE HELP OF OTHERS I HAVE MANAGED TO TRACE THESE DETAILS OF THE GRANDMOTHER- I NEVER HAD. I HAVE TRIED BUT WAS UNSUCCESFUL IN TRACING WHAT HAPPENED TO HER BODY! I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO KNOW IF OR WHERE SHE HAD BEEN BURIED. RE: THE ELDEST CHILD WHO WAS IN A CONVERLESCENT HOME!, (AND WAS NEVER FOUND BY MY DAD) NOTHING FURTHER IS KNOWN. HIS FATHER WENT ON TO REMARRY AND HAVE OTHER CHILDREN. MY MOTHER SAID MY DAD HAD TRIED TO TRACE HIS OLDER BROTHER HE HAD PLACED NEWSPAPER ADVERTS TO FIND HIM BUT TO NO AVAIL. I DID A TRACE AND FOUND A MAN THE CORRECT NAME WHO HAD BEEN BORN IN SOUTHWARK IN 1914 HAD DIED IN TRURO IN 1992. WAS THIS HIM! I will further enquires and carry on with my search. UPDATE SINCE WRITING THE ABOVE I HAVE FOUND A SITE CALLED FAMILY HISTORY ONLINE AND SAW REGISTERED UNDER DEATHS: LOUISA GATES, HOLY TRINITY, SUNNINGDALE. I CONTACTED THEM AND THEIR REPLY IS BELOW: Dear Carol Many thanks for your messages – what an extraordinary story. I have been to look at our records and we do indeed have something: Louisa Gates aged 23 years of Walworth was buried in the churchyard. It says that there was an inquest. There is a grave space but I am not sure how successful a search would be for a stone there. If you would like to make a visit sometime and come to see the records for yourself and take a look at the churchyard, that would be very possible. Just give me a call. With all good wishes, as ever, David The Vicarage Holy Trinity Sunningdale Ascot SL5 0PD

If you would like to make a visit sometime and come to see the records for yourself and take a look at the churchyard, that would be very possible. Just give me a call. With all good wishes, as ever, David The Vicarage Holy Trinity Sunningdale Ascot SL5 0PD