Genealogy Chat

I have been all day looking up these people and my eyes are glazing over. I am looking for the birth of what appear to be twin boys, Thomas and George Otley b.1895 Walthamstow Essex to Emma nee Mahoney, and James. I found them on the 1901 census and I know it is the right family because Emma's mother is living with them (Ann Mahoney). I haven't been able to find a marriage for Emma and James either. I have tried other spellings and wildcards with no luck. Can another pair of eyes hve better luck? I would really appreciate the help. Many thanks. Maggie

1901 - just for reference Ann Mahoney abt 1828 Norfolk, England Mother-in-law Walthamstow Essex Emma Otley abt 1871 St Luke, London, England Wife Walthamstow Essex George Otley abt 1861 Deptford, Kent, England Brother Walthamstow Essex George Otley abt 1895 Walthamstow, Essex, England Son Walthamstow Essex James Otley abt 1866 Deptford, Kent, England Head Walthamstow Essex Thomas Otley abt 1895 Walthamstow, Essex, England Son Walthamstow Essex

Firstly the census age could be out by a year either way. Secondly, are you looking on Freebmd or going through the GRO indexes checking each quarter? nell

i have checked 1894-1896 on ancestry BMD index

How certain are you that they are twins? It could be that there was just under a year between them and both happened to be the same age when the census was taken. There is this birth for George Otley in Islington (I don't know London/Essex at all so may be nowhere near) George Otley March qtr. 1895, Islington, 1b, 359 Kath. x

Thanks Jeanette, I have checked that too. I have checked LDS, BMD and Ancestry, I didn't check quarter by quarter though Helen, perhaps that is where I should go next. Thanks Elaine, that is the family I am working on. Kathleen, I don't have any other reference except the 1901 census which gives both their birth dates as 1895. Of course I suppose that doesn't mean they are twins, but I haven't been able to pin down any births for them. I saw the George born in Islington and unfortunately the image is not available. Thinking again after your input, perhaps I should keep looking for two separate births. Thank all for your help. Maggie

I know that GRO index -spellings can be almost as imaginative as the Ancestry transcriptions but...??? Name: Thomas Walter Outlaw Year of Registration: 1895 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Edmonton County: Essex, Hertfordshire, Middlesex Volume: 3a Page: 341 Name: George Henry Outlaw Year of Registration: 1893 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: Edmonton County: Essex, Hertfordshire, Middlesex Volume: 3a Page: 376 and the brother? (find him in the Medway CityArk Parish Register images, perhaps?) Although I didn't think Deptford was Medway? Name: George Arthur Outlaw Year of Registration: 1862 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: Medway (1837-1941) County: Kent Volume: 2a Page: 369 and this isn't even the right county! Name: Henry James G Outlaw Year of Registration: 1867 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: Stepney County: Greater London, London, Middlesex Volume: 1c Page: 492 Christine

I have checked that Mrs Ann Mahoney had this name when Emma was born. In 1891 Emma is still Mahoney. I think she married Edward Fox: Marriages Jun 1893 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fox Edward Shoreditch 1c 109 Lewis Walter David Shoreditch 1c 109 MAHONEY Emma Shoreditch 1c 109 MAHONY Emma Shoreditch 1c 109 Mendham Elizabeth Shoreditch 1c 109 Then Edward Fox died: Name: Edward Fox Birth Date: abt 1871 Year of Registration: 1899 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec Age at death: 28 District: West Ham County: Essex, Greater London Volume: 4a Page: 227 and then Emma married James Otley: Marriages Mar 1901 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Duck Emily W. Ham 4a 232 Fox Emma West Ham 4a 232 FRANKLIN Frederick John W. Ham 4a 232 Franklin Fredrick John W.Ham 4a 232 OTTLEY James West Ham 4a 232 The twins should be called Fox! Walthamstow is West ham district, but as yet I haven't found them! The trouble is, we know the enumerator was copying from one sheet to another.....what if they were not BOTH aged 6 and he just copied from the wrong line? There are so many possible births, when you don't know which child is 6 and which isn't (though I'd guess the second one is probably younger, rather than the first one being older). If I were you I would be buying the 1901 marriage cert, maybe with a checking point of the bride's father being William Mahoney! Merry

I have looked for the twins on 1837online between 1893 and 1898 but no luck. Eileen

Hi Christine I always thought we had Outlaws in the family!!! I am a bit of one myself. LOL! Those are possibilities anyway. I think this name is one that can be very badly mistranscribed. I found some under Oxley, and wasn't even sure it was actually Otley until I found James' family in 1871 to confirm. I am particularly interested in finding out if these two were twins because we have a number of sets of twins in the family, including two of my brothers, and I am greedy!

Merry You are a genius. That makes sense to me!! I saw that Emma Fox, and it didn't even occur to me to think of two marriages.. I have spent hours on this too. Many thanks for your clever detective work, it will iron out quite a few other glitches as well. Just when I think I am getting pretty good at this I find I STILL need to think outside the box more!! You are right, I will send for the cert. Thanks again.

And I was having SUCH fun with the Outlaws! How about this one: Name: Thomas Albert Fox Year of Registration: 1897 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: West Ham County: Essex, Greater London Volume: 4a Page: 385 and one of these... Name: George Norman Fox Year of Registration: 1896 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep District: West Ham County: Essex, Greater London Volume: 4a Page: 338 [although they should show up as 4, if both were born near the end of the preceding quarter] or George William B Fox 1894 Jan-Feb-Mar West Ham George Fox 1894 Apr-May-Jun West Ham Archibald George Fox 1896 Jul-Aug-Sep West Ham George Albert Fox 1898 Jan-Feb-Mar West Ham **** perhaps: Name: Thomas Herbert Fox Year of Registration: 1893 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: West Ham County: Essex, Greater London Volume: 4a Page: 344 plus one of the first two I just listed? Christine

I should have said - Well Done, Merry! That was a very clever bit of lateral thinking. Christine

What made me look was thinking that Emma isn't an Irish name (I don't think, anyway!), but Mahoney is, so I guessed there wouldn't be many marriages for the name Emma Mahoney. When I found the only one in the right area I wondered if this was your Emma, and it was. I only found the Ottley marriage afterwards (because I started off looking at Otley, not Ottley!) Merry

Christine, Thanks for finding the Little Foxes LOL. I guess I need to figure out which birth certs to send for from those. It doesn't look as if I am going to be adding any twins to my collection does it? I appreciate your work on this Maggie

BTW, I did check that Emma Mahoney did def marry Edward Fox and not the other chap,....luckily the other chap was still alive in 1901 and his wife was Elizabeth, the other bride. Merry

Eileen....you are right and Christine has posted a lot of Fox births! Merry

Eileen Thank you for help. I guess the reason we couldn't find them is just that I had the wrong name for them to begin with! I appreciate your looking though. Maggie