Genealogy Chat

I would think the two birth dates are probably correct. As birth registration was not compulsory until 1875, there would be little point in making up a birth date in order to cover a late registration - you just wouldn't bother registering the child. Sorry, I don't have a clue about American birth certs - perhaps put up another post asking for that information? A few of mine went to the USA with more than four children! (And came back again). OC

Hi Linda and Gail, Think i will leave this to you two as it 1.30 in the morning here and better get some sleep. Will check in tomorrow to see how you have gone. Have only been able to find Septimus on one census with surname spelt Gardener. Good Luck with the search Regards Sue

Hi Gail, I did'nt think of the sister having a child! Will look into that one. Looking at my granddad cert he was born on 18th Sept 1866 and registered on 16th Oct 1866. Joseph was born on 21 Jan 1867 and registered on 23rd Jan 1867 so they were not registered late. I cannot believe I have had so may replies to quickly. So many nice people out there! Thank you all. Linda

This is confusing, as OC says I still would not close my mind to two families, but I wish you luck. I am going to have another look at the census returns as there is still the problem of two children born so close to one another.....there are three possibilities as I see it. 1. Two different families 2. Two children, same parents, first one being registered late and second one being born slightly premature.... 3. Actually a daughters child that mum registered to save face.. Gail. x PS have a good sleep Sue x

Hi OC This did cross my mind. Its just that they seem to merge on various census returns. Also when my dad was alive he mentioned a Septimus and something about America. This is the part Dawn has found out about. I cannot imagine Francis and Mary going off to USA as they would have had at least 4 children. Did they take them or what. Do you know how I can find a birth cert for child born in USA? Linda x

Hi Su and Gail, I thought I had my family all sussed out then just before christmas another ancestor contacted me. She is the great granddaughter of Catherine my grandads elder sister. I had found 13 children (I have been doing this family for over 20 years now). Dawn then told me she had found a Lavinia living with her great grandmother Catherine. She noticed that I had two Lavinia's in my tree. One my sister Lavinia and my aunt Lavinia. She thought this was two much of a coincidence. She has since got a copy of Lavinia's birth cert and it clearly shows she is also a sibling. We are going round the bend Dawn and I trying to sort this out. Gail you mentioned about having the same address? My granddad was born in Hull and Joseph was born in Knottingly. Just to add, whilst I was on the phone to Pontefract Register Office ordering Joseph's cert, the very kind lady volunteered information that there was also an Ann born to the same couple in 1868 in Knottingly. I have not got this cert but she assures me that the mother is Mary Johnson. Linda x

Linda I have parallel families. Unlikely as it may seem, I had two James Holdens, born in the same place, same year - in fact only a week apart. They were cousins. They both married in the same year, same place, both to a woman called Mary Slater (the women were Aunt and Niece, but same age). They then had umpteen kids each, with more or less the same names. The only way I have sorted any of this out was from monumental inscriptions, which sorted out a few of the girls who had married. The rest are anybody's guess! OC

Hi Gail, Yes I have seen this Francis and Mary and have a copy of that census. My Francis was also Mariner/Seaman/Sailor/Merchant Joiner and Master Mariner. There is a Thomas Johnson on 1881 census living in Knottingly along with his wife Alice and son John James. He is also a son of Francis and Mary Johnson. It seems Francis and Mary travelled between Hull and Knottingly baptising children in both places. Francis was first married to Sarah Dyson in Pontefract in 1846. Sarah died in Hull in 1848. Francis then married Mary Johnson daughter of George Tindall Johnson and Mary Ann French. I also have a copy of Francis and Sarah's marriage cert. It is very confusing as I have found two Francis and Mary's on the 1851 census. One set living in Finkle Street Hull and the other living in Hanover Square with a Jane Reynolds. Again both the ages are the same. Linda x

Hi Sue Thought I had sent you off to bed with a headache LOL... Gail. x

Hi, See what you mean on the 1881 census there is a Joseph who is only 10.Where if it was the same one as on the 1871 census he should be 24 Regards Sue

Gail, LOL no not just yet still trying to get my head around this family. Sue

On the 1871 census is shows my grandfather James Robert aged 5 which is correct according to his birth date. I does not show Septimus or Catherine both of which belong to Francis and Mary. My grandfather does not appear on the 1881 census but other siblings do. All very confusing. Linda x

Hi Linda I am easily confused it is an age thing...but this is what confused me even further. I picked this family up on the 1881 and then realised they are the same age as the ones on the 1871....so ....this is NOT the right family.... Francis Gardiner Age: 48 Estimated birth year: abt 1833 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Mary Where born: Knottingley, Yorkshire, England Civil parish: Knottingley County/Island: Yorkshire Street address: Cow Lane Occupation: Mariner Emma Bradley 30 Emma A. Gardiner 5 Francis Gardiner 48 Joseph Gardiner 14 Mary Gardiner 45 Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 4585; Folio: 70; Page: 10; Line: ; GSU roll: 1342107. Gail. x

Hi Sue Linda has the birth cert for James Robert though....I think there is another son Joseph aged 14 in 1881, (father a mariner)....that is if I have followed the right family Oh got it I am getting confused......no...still cannot tally these children's births, I am going to leave it to you Sue before I confuse the issue. Gail. x

Hi Gail and Su, I seem to have a really puzzling tree. Yes I know about the census 1861 and 1871. It shows various children. Even on the 1881 census there is a Septimus and Lavinia which are definately part of my tree. All the ages on each census for Francis and Mary are correct with my research. It seems unlikely that two Francis's and two Mary Johnson's marry with the same ages. I have marriage cert for them in Hull. Several children do not make it to adulthood but according to various census returns it seems they have one or two children with the same name at the same time. All very confusing. Regards Linda

I have just been looking at that but it is John W the other son... Gail. x

Hi, Don't know if this is your family but son Joseph is born in the states me: Joseph Gardiner Age: 12 Estimated birth year: abt 1859 Relation: Son Father's name: Frances Mother's name: Mary Gender: Male Where born: United States Civil parish: St Mary County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Disability: View image Registration district: Hull Sub-registration district: St Mary ED, institution, or vessel: 3 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 89 Household Members: Name Age Frances Gardiner 49 Francis Gardiner 7 James Gardiner 5 John W Gardiner 13 Joseph Gardiner 12 Kate Gardiner 4 Mary Gardiner 38 Mary A Gardiner 7 months Richard Gardiner 6 William Gardiner 3 All the rest of the children are born in Hull. Fathes occupation is Sailor f Regards Sue

Hi Gail John W born in Hull Joseph in America Sorry Gail wasn't with you lol Now i am confused.Think it is just about time for bed Regards Sue

Are you sure it is not two different couples, despite the names.. Is the address the same (if given) and father' occupation? Also it can be more than 4 months allowing for the registration periods. Gail. x

I have a copy of my grandfathers birth certificate. He is James Robert Gardiner born 18.9.1866 in Hull. It shows his father as Francis Gardiner and his mother as Mary Gardiner formerly Johnson. I have just received a copy of his brother Joseph's birth certificate born 24.2.1867 Knottingly. It shows his father Francis Gardiner and his mother Mary Gardiner formerly Johnson. How can this woman have two babies in four months? I know Francis and Mary had many children (20 which we have found to date) but to have two in four months seems rather odd!!! Any advice would be appreciated. Regards Linda Cooke