Genealogy Chat

Hi and thanks Richard, Scarlet and Gwyneth Richard I must admit I am leaning towards William possibly not being Mary Ann's father as she was born in Aston Hertfordshire, where John Penn was living. Her brother, Joseph, was born in Stapleford where her mother married William. Scarlet That is the correct William in 1851, they married in December 1851 and you have his mother and brother in Stapleford. His father died 1842 also in Stapleford. Gwyneth The marriage you found is correct. I will just have to keep searching until I find William's death and then decide. Tut tut..my gt grandmother may have been born ' out of wedlock' whatever next.... regards Tricia

Different again on baptism.. WILLIAM MORSBRAY Male Event(s): Birth: Christening: 12 MAY 1829 Stapleford, Hertford, England Parents: Father: JOSEPH MORSBRAY Family Mother: ANN ( A Charles 1823 shows as well to same parents) Mother in 1841 - different again Name: Ann Mowbry Age: 49 Estimated birth year: abt 1792 Gender: Female Where born: Hertfordshire, England Civil parish: Stapleford Hundred: Hertford County/Island: Hertfordshire Country: England Registration district: Hertford Sub-registration district: Watton Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Ann Mowbry 49 Charles Mowbry 18 Josh Mowbry 40 < being Joseph

This is on freebmd....maybe mistranscribed Marriages Dec 1851 CRANFIELD Emily Harriett Hertford 6 915 Hammond Mary Ann Hertford 6 915 Mowbery William Hertford 6 915 Shambrook William Hertford 6 915 Gwyn

I can see this chappie in 1851 census -- unmarried-- i can't actually see the marriage of he and Emma anywhere though. Name: William Mowbray Age: 24 Estimated birth year: abt 1827 Relation: Servant Gender: Male Where born: Stapleford, Hertfordshire, England Civil parish: Stapleford County/Island: Hertfordshire Country: England

If William Mowbray was Mary Ann's father then he would have been shown as such on her birth cert, even if he was deceased by the time of her birth. The fact that no father is shown on her bc means that Emma was not married to Mary Ann's father at the time. Therefore, I would suggest that William died before Mary Ann was conceived (i.e. between 1852 & 1856) and so her father must be either John Penn, or a third, unidentified man. I don't think that you can assume that just because Emma later married John Penn that he was necessarily the father of Mary Ann, though the fact that Mary Ann put him as her father on her mc does support that theory. She could have put him down as her father when in fact he was a step-dad though.

Hi Vicky Her father was shown as John Penn on her marriage certificate. If her father was William Mowbray would they have recorded him as deceased or would they also have left that section blank? Tricia

Hi Tricia, Is the Father's name blank on her marriage certificate? It would be blank on her birth certificate if the Penn guy wasn't present when her mum registered the birth. Kind Regards Jane

Hi Gypsy Queen Yes she married my gt grandfather and was shown as Mary Ann Penn, she was baptised and raised as a Penn but I could be on the wrong track if I assume she was John Penns natural child. I tend to think that if she was, they would have put his name on the certificate as the father. regards Tricia

Tricia, Did she marry? Fathers name should be on her marriage cert. Pat

It is difficult to know if the father's name was omitted from her birth certificate because he was the deceased William Mowbray or because she was the illegitimate daughter of John Penn. How on earth can I find out which is the correct reason. Tricia

Hi Margaret Thank you for your reply. I have them through the census to 1901. My problem is knowing which line to persue prior to Mary Ann's birth. Whether I am descended from the Mowbrays or Penns. regards Tricia

I would think Penn, Tricia, but like you, I can't find the death of William Mowbray. Margaret

Joseph is living with Aunt& Uncle: 1861 census Hertford Rd., Stapleford Hertfordshire Charles Mowbray, head, 37, shepherd, born Stapleford Leah, wife, 38, born Smithfield, London Joseph, nephew, 8, scholar, born Stapleford Rebecca Tingey?, visitor, 9, scholar, born London

This looks like the family in 1861 but daughter Mary Ann is now a Penn: 1861 census Aston Village, Hertfordshire John Penn, head, 33, ag. lab., born Aston, Herts. Emma, wife, 28, born Bennington, Herts. William, son, 6, scholar, born London Mary Ann, dau, 4, scholar,born Aston Martha, dau, 2, born Aston

Trying to define who the father was. Please see below

Hi all I have been searching for the correct line to follow after a widow remarried. I have the following timeline. 1851 Emma Harriet Cranfield married William Mowbray in Stapleford Hertfordshire 1852 Joseph Mowbray born in Stapleford with Emma and William Mowbray shown as parents. 1.4.1857 Mary Ann born. In Aston Hertfordshire Mother Emma Mowbray space for father left blank 27.9.1857 Emma Mowbray (widow)married John Penn in Aston Hertfordshire I have been unable to find the date of William Mowbray’s death Any theories very welcome. Tricia