Genealogy Chat

Nudged to go with other thread.

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I am now nudging this back up as have megga probs regarding this...Please have another look at the info as got contradictory evidence and have asked about census info to try and give me insight on what actually happened on the night census taken Please see `Enumeration query` Appreciate all info given and will gladly look at it all but now feel very lost on all this....Am in the middle of blanket searching for Eliza on 1881 census.Anyone who knows about this sort of search will know how painstakenly it is.I am not using the last name so it is just Eliza and then all variations of it as in Elisa,Elzbth,Elizabeth,Elisabeth,Betsey,Betsy etc.. I expect by the end of the night or should I say the morning I will be a blithering idiot!!! Its been lovely knowing you and I shall sink with this ship cabin an all!!!! Off to kissywhatsits now..Over an out!!! Missing seawoman Blindasasaasa..see im blitherin..goodbyeeee Wanda %0)))) ooooooooogon

Hi Andrea,sorry its taken so long to reply but have been doing a blanket search using only the name John on the 1881 census to see if I could find anything at all....and yes your right..I have found nothing at all! Its put my mind at ease though as I kept thinking what if Ive missed him through something like a wrong spelling as in for eg. Caulden which could sound like Goulden... Anyway..as regards Sarah Ann Williams...I already have that cert..dob 11/05/1888.Father John Whitworth Williams and mother Charlotte Williams former Hardy... Well actually I have it twice as I misplaced it so sent for it again and then found the first one...live up to my name of Blindasabat dont I !!!! So that ones a no go....Will re-read what you have sent me as Im now brain dead and skenning from looking at all them Johns.I even got to the point of wanting a John Crowther with wife Sarah living next door to a family of Williams to be mine!!!!! Back in a mo...Wanda %0))))

Have found this for 1891 Name: Thomas Rowbottom Age: 60 Estimated birth year: abt 1831 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Harriett Gender: Male Where born: Manchester Civil parish: Manchester Ecclesiastical parish: St Simon and St Jude Town: Manchester County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Registration district: Manchester Sub-registration district: Central ED, institution, or vessel: 26 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Nellie Gregory 17 boarder Harriett Rowbottom 59 b Salford Jane Rowbottom 19 daughter Thomas Rowbottom 60 Hawker (can't read what follows this possibly fish & C) Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 3239; Folio 122; Page 24; GSU roll: 6098349. I take it this is the Thomas found in 1881. So we have Thomas b c1831 a Hawker with Harriet and Thomas b c1829 a smith with John Goulden. I doubt if they are the same person and it would mean two people on the census twice - one coincidence too far. I would go for Thomas being Sarah's father. 1871 Name: Thomas Rowbottom Age: 42 Estimated birth year: abt 1829 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Eliza Gender: Male Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England Civil parish: Hulme Ecclesiastical parish: St Philip County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Registration district: Chorlton Sub-registration district: Hulme ED, institution, or vessel: 4 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 164 Household Members: Name Age Eliza Rowbottom 34 Jemima Rowbottom 3 weeks Martha Rowbottom 1 Mary Ann Rowbottom 6 Sarah Rowbottom 11 Thomas Rowbottom 42 lab in iron works Thomas Rowbottom 20 William Rowbottom 14 Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 3995; Folio: 91; Page: 35; GSU roll: 846098. this thomas is more of a smith and I think he is the one in Barrow in Furness in 1881 working as a 'striker' in the shipyard which would be a similar profession; he is married and a boarder. Unfortunately cannot find the rest of his family. Also found these births Name: John Williams Year of Registration: 1886 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar DISTRICT: Chorlton County: Lancashire Volume: 8c Page: 877 Name: Sarah Ann Williams Year of Registration: 1888 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun DISTRICT: Chorlton County: Lancashire Volume: 8c Page: 756 I would be tempted to get Sarah Ann's.

Hi Alex,have been on National archives on line and there is nothing relating to Emma having taken any procedures against the name of Rowbotham.Have tried various spellings of the name just in case and tried Dakin as well to be on the safe side.Put in Goulden and various spellings but nothing for that.(While I was in I looked up the name of Brierley which is my blood line.Good heavens if any of them are mine they were all vagabonds and thieves). I also looked for Mary Ellen Goulden and the different ways her name was spelt and especially Ellen Goulden as the court named her on the petition but even that wasnt there... What would you reccommend I send for in the way of certs out of the info you have given me? Would really appreciate your opinion. Wanda... UPDATE..Have ordered cert for Mary Ellen Williams 1892.Off to bed now,back tmoz...

Hi Alex,sorry but I dont have a marriage for Eliza or anything about her at all... The witnesses at Mary Ellens marraige was a Joseph Sheen and Frances J McDonall... Im having to keep reading what you have put.My brain cant get round it just yet...bear with me ..And Thank you.. Wanda.

Hi Wanda Well I had some time on my hands and spent a couple of hours going over the censuses and checking the BMD stuff and it was really making me wonder whether there were some dodgy dealings going on!!! Let me know how things pan out! Alex

FLIPPIN ECK!!! Alex where did you get all that from...Im gobsmacked....The Dakin part was brought up by Janice Jagger a friend of mine.She just like Willow have been absolutely supportive on this but Janice has had a few commitments which she needed to sort so have basically plodded on as best I can.I have just folled anothr line and ordered a cert for the birth of a Matilda Williams to a Richard and Sarah A williams.It was thought that Sarah A is Sarah with John Goulden in the 1891.Whatever people suggest I just go and order the cert,have 2 pending at the moment to send for but with what you have just said I need to read and digest it before I do this..Thank you very much.Give me time to take it in will you. Wanda. :0)))

Hi Wanda I was looking at the 1891 census entry and noticed that Thomas Rowbotham is down as 'Father'. This is really odd as he isn't down as father in law - ie. Sarah's dad. Now Thomas Rowbotham had a son John Rowbotham who seems to have married his stepsister Emma Dakin (also spelt Deakin or Deacon). I can find them in 1891 but not in 1901. Is it possible that Goulding/Goulden is an alias - i.e. he was living a double life - so he called himself Goulden with Sarah (I've not been able to find their marriage so far). Sarah died in 1896 in Chorlton district aged 35 (reg as Golding). The reason I am thinking they never married as there is a birth in Manchester district in 1892 for a Mary Ellen Williams. Could John really be John Rowbotham - enumerated twice in 1891 under both households - once with his wife Emma and then with his mistress Sarah under another name - but with his father with them? Thomas Rowbotham was married twice - once in 1851 to Hannah Martin who already had three children from her previous marriage - William, James and Samuel. She was Hannah Redfern who married James Martin in 1836 in Prestwich. They then had John in 1854. It seems like Thomas and Hannah separated as they were living in different houses in 1871 - Hannah with her sons Samuel and John (down as Anna Redfern) and Thomas with boarders Harriett Dakin and her children Emma, Thomas and Prudence. Hannah died in 1872 and Thomas married Harriett in 1877. He and Harriett had a son David Rowbotham Dakin in 1876 who died in 1876 too. I think they also had a daughter Jane together who was 9 in the 1881 census. There is also a Jane Dakin aged 2 in the household who may be Emma's illegitimate daughter. In 1882 John Rowbotham married Emma Deakin (who I think is Emma Dakin - his stepsister). They also had a daughter Prudence aged 8, a son Samuel aged 4, a daughter Sarah Ann aged 2 and a son John Thomas aged 1 month, and Harriett A Deacon aged 14 as daughter too, along with Jane E Rowbotham aged 12 - daughter. Harriett Ann was born in 1877 and registered under Deakin. (I cannot find her in 1881). Jane may have been born in 1879 registered as Jane Deakin. I noticed that she was given the middle initial of E in 1891. I cannot find this family at all in 1901 but Prudence Rowbotham married in 1903 in Manchester. Emma Rowbotham (nee Dakin) died in 1913 in Chorlton district aged 55. Her mother Harriett died in Chortlon district in 1886 aged 48. As John Goulden and Sarah were living in Chortlon district in 1891 and John as a widower with his daughters Sarah A aged 14 (down as Sarah Ann Williams in 1891) and Mary Ellen aged 8 in 1901 in Chortlon too. Sorry to confuse matters more for you - who were the witnesses on Mary Ellen's marriage? Do you have the marriage of Eliza? It all seems very strange but if I were you I would see if you could find out any information on the Rowbothams - if there were any legal matters that perhaps Emma may have known about her husbands double life and petitioned him for money to support their children while he was with someone else... Alex

Have spent a good part of the night going through paperwork that Willow got for me from Kew...My aim on this thread was to see if I could trace a `sibling` (Eliza Goulden) of Mary Ellen Goulden which might lead me to finding her..Having looked through the papers I now have more problems...Mary Eleen Goulden married a Thomas Mitchell in 1914 but had a child to him in 1911.There is a bastardy bond in with the papers.The court that dealt with it names her as Ellen Goulden...to add to my problems one peice of paperwork names her as Mary Ellen Goulding and a letter written to the home office has her as Mary A Goulden....Is there anyone out there that would like to help me out on this major problem please...Thanks very much. Wanda :0( Well its 12-30 now so will leave this till tmoz...Wanda.

Right its late and I know we need to go to bed but please dont give up on this...I will be back tmoz and just hope that someone can see something I dont..Willow can tell you how long I have been trying to find my family...I only have the greatest respect for her for what she has done...Every night I log on and search Ancestry and every other site I can, but this is now becoming an obsesssion and find I am printing exactly the same ones off each time.I thought if I tried another member of the family then if they were found it could lead to my main aim which is my grandma...Thank you for helping and will be back tomorrow.Wanda.x

Nickyds...will look at...Yes June that is what I have...Wanda.xx

Awwww Willow,thank you......As you can see Im still looking for my Mary Ellen.Thought if I looked for Eliza then I might find her.All the names connected with the family from 1891 census are not obvious in 1881? Why? Its not like its just one name.Theres Goulden,Rowbotham and Williams.You can`t misspell all of them or can you? ..So nice to hear from you...x

Hi June...Yes,thats her..Cant` get anywhere with this family at all.Its not like its distant.Willow found my grandma and near enough everyting to do with her from 1911 onwards..Her before life is a mystery.I just keep going through the name of Goulden and the variations and I have now tied in 12 lines near enough.The one that `seems` to be the father Johns line is father Thomas Goulden and Mother Martha Goulden but even in their line 1881 is missing! Please help.Wanda.x

1901 census Name: John Golden Age: 42 Estimated birth year: abt 1859 Relation: Head Gender: Male Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England Civil parish: South Manchester Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Education: Employment status: View image Registration district: Chorlton Sub-registration district: Chorlton upon Medlock ED, institution, or vessel: 52 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 103 Household Members: Name Age John Golden 42 Mary Ellen Golden 8 Sarah A Golden 14 Honorah Quinn 18 Mary Quinn 49 June x

Theres an ELIZABETH GOULDEN born June qtr 1878 CHORLTON 8c 920 could this be yours? Nicky

1891 census for ref Name: Eliza Goulden Age: 12 Estimated birth year: abt 1879 Relation: Daughter Father's name: John Mother's name: Sarah Gender: Female Where born: Manchester Civil parish: Chorlton On Medlock Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints Town: Manchester County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Education: Employment status: View image Registration district: Chorlton Sub-registration district: Chorlton upon Medlock ED, institution, or vessel: 43 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Eliza Goulden 12 John Goulden 32 Sarah Goulden 30 Thomas Rowbotham 62 John Williams 5 Sarah Ann Williams 3 June x

Hi Wanda luv this is the family you are looking at in 1881 (parents David & Elizabeth) Name: David Goulden Age: 23 Estimated birth year: abt 1858 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Elizabeth Gender: Male Where born: Hulme Civil parish: Chorlton On Medlock County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: 5 Lr Cambridge St Condition as to marriage: Married Education: Employment status: View image Occupation: Carter Registration district: Chorlton Sub-registration district: Chorlton Upon Medlock ED, institution, or vessel: 37 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Alice Goulden 4 David Goulden 23 Eliza Goulden 3 Elizabeth Goulden 20 Henry Goulden 32 John Thos. Goulden Sarah Ann Goulden 2 View Original Record View original image Eliza looks to be the daughter of Henry??

Can anyone see this person anywhere else apart from the 1891 census..ELIZA GOULDEN abt 1879 born Manchester.She is located in the 1891 census but I can only find her name in other census`s with wrong parents of David and Elizabeth.According to the 1891 her parents are John and Sarah...Have been looking for her sibling of Mary Ellen if this is something you seem to have seen before...Can anyone locate a marraige or death for her..Thought if I went for the sibling instead of the one I want then I might get info from that instead....Please if you can help I would really appreciate it.Wanda:0))((