Genealogy Chat

OC Thanks very much for your thoughts on that one. I wonder if your umpteen x great grandfather ever called in at Samlesbury Hall, where he would probably have 'just missed' our family's resident priest (lol)! I too had thought that Nicholas Plastow might have been a Catholic church representative, attending to make the couples concerned feel better about having to marry in the parish church, as I simply couldn't believe it to be a coincidence that all the couples whose marriages he witnessed appeared to be Catholics. It's an interesting idea about him actually performing the ceremony, though. It's not one I had considered but seems entirely plausible. Thanks again Amanda

Amanda My IMPRESSION has been (and it is only that, an impression) that most were reluctant to sign the Oath, but did so for fear of reprisals - those who were able to wriggle out of signing it, did so. My umpteen times GF (wealthy landowner and lord of the Manor) acted as a Royalist and spent many hours enthusiastically chasing across the Moors in search of hidden Catholics - funny, he was always a day too late, or going in the wrong direction etc. What is more, he had a Priest hidden in his house, lol. I have been most impressed with how slippery he managed to be - no outright defiance, but doing nothing to further the Royalist cause and everything to hinder it. And a further impression is that the Clergy weren't too thrilled either, being mostly so high church that you could hardly distinguish them from RCs. I wonder if your RC witness was a neat way for the Vicar to avoid trouble in conducting a RC nuptial mass, but he turned a blind eye to a witness conducting one? On the other hand, it may have simply been that RC couples wanted someone of their own faith and beliefs to witness their wedding, reluctantly undertaken in the C of E church - perhaps to write up later in a secret RC register?? OC

OC Thanks for that. Would that be Chorley, St Lawrence and Leyland, St Andrew? I'll have a look at those registers in more detail (I have only scanned the Leyland one for particular years) and see what turns up. To be honest, I was a little bit surprised that the staff at Preston didn't have more knowledge about these documents and Catholic surveys. The Standish list included some notes, which had been added by the vicar/parish clerk and, from reading them, I almost sensed his apprehension at having to write down the names of recusants. He made various excuses for people such as 'X is out of town on business but he would certainly have signed.' and 'there had been a misunderstanding on X's part and he has now agreed to attend and sign.' He probably feared the trouble that would result from people not signing. On the subject of Leyland parish church: do you recall when looking through the registers that one Nicholas Plastow was signatory as witness to about a third of all marriages at the church from the early 1780s to the late 1790s? I noticed, from the presence of lots of Catholic families (who had previously cropped up in the registers of the local Catholic churches), that he seemed only to be involved at the weddings of Catholics (who made up about a large proportion of the local population). I 'googled' him and found out he was the landlord of the inn, next door to the church. Do you know why he would have acted in that capacity at so many weddings? I put a thread on here, asking about professional witnesses,as that's what I assumed him to be, but wasn't entirely sure why he seemed only to witness the weddings of Catholics? Do you think that as well as being local inn keeper, he was also a key member of the local Catholic community? Your thoughts would be appreciated. Amanda

Amanda I am almost postive that the original register for Chorley contains a list, tucked into the middle of the register.(I mean, it was written, and signed, in chronology with the register) It is a very long time since I looked at this particular register, so if it isnt the Chorley one, then it must be the Leyland one, as those were my two main registers of interest and I spent months and months going through them. (I got the films from the LDS, Leyland in particular is very badly filmed) More recently, I have seen another such list, again in the original parish register, for St James, Gawsworth, CHESHIRE. I was absolutely fascinated to see the signatures - most of the men COULD sign their names and even those who couldn't, made elaborate marks - not the usual X, but lines, decorated with little loops and curlicues and dots - all different from the next man's mark. As far as I can remember, there were no lists of those who did NOT sign - my family, for one! Guessing, but perhaps the Vicar sent off a list of those who HADN'T signed, using the signed list in the register as a prompt? OC

Hi OC, Can I ask you where you viewed the ones you've referred to? I had expected to find some protestation returns at the County Records Office at Preston, but when I called in, a couple of weeks ago, they told me they hadn't got any. I'd really like to see them. I had also expected to find some 'Catholic Censuses' for the different parts of Lancashire, as I know one was taken for the parish of Standish in 1764, copies of which are held at the local archives in both Chorley and Wigan. Unfortunately the CRO said that they held only one, for the Preston area, and that was from a similar year. Have you seen any of this type of survey? I'm particularly interested in the areas around Samlesbury, Chorley and Leyland. Amanda

Hi again Chris The report I've seen at my local archives is not the original, but a typed transcript, prepared by a Local Heritage Services employee. It is for the old parish of Standish, Lancashire, which the included villages that are no longer part of that parish. They were: Coppell; Adlington; Anderton village; Heath Charnock; Charnock Richard; Duxbury village; Wittle; Shevington and Standish with Langtree. I'm not sure where the original document is held, but will ask the man who transcribed it next time I call in. It certainly doesn't appear to be held at the County Records Office in Preston, as I've asked them and they say they don't hold any Protestation Returns for anywhere in Lancashire. I wish I had got as far back as the 1640s, but am currently only at 1768 in terms of concrete evidence. It gets MUCH harder before that time as the relationships are harder to prove 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'. I came across this list whilst looking for 'Catholic censuses' for the late 18th C, which would be far more useful to me at the present time Still....very interesting and useful documents. I just hope I do get back that far! Amanda

Amanda and Chris- Thanks for your very clear explainations. I'm learning a lot, whilst doing my family tree! (Sorry the 'thanks' took so long - been doing other things. Ugh! Housework!) Bx

OC That's interesting.... I thought the original was sent and it would only be a copy, if they chose to make one and it has survived, in the local RO. I did wonder if there are returns in ROs that aren't in the House of Lord Archives. Mmmm... So that raises a question.. We know the records at the House of Lords are not complete. So a local record office happens to have a return they don't have.. Would it have been picked up when they started the A2A online resourse? Would the House of Lords Archives be alerted to records 'sitting' in ROs across the country or would they have to trawl the A2A to find and call in missing records themselves? I suppose, it means those of us tracing our family history need to check both ROs and the House of Lords....If we are lucky enough to get back to then :) Chris

Thank you for that. I've just e-mailed them to see how much it would cost for them to send me the list for the Walloon Church in Canterbury. It should give me an idea as to how many of my Huguenot Macarees were in the area.

Amanda I have seen many of these lists in the Parish Registers, for the Lancashire area. Presumably the Vicar sent off a copy - the lists I have seen in the PRs all have original signatures. OC

Barbara In 1641 Parliament passed a resolution requiring all males aged 18 or over to take an oath swearing support of the Crown, Parliament and the Protestant Religion. The returns are lists of the men that took the oath and were prepared in each parish by the parish incumbent or clerk. The men then signed or made their mark after swearing the oath. Some refused to sign, apparently mainly Catholics, and they are sometimes also listed. The returns were sent to Parliament in 1682 but are incomplete. Chris ***SNAP Amanda*****

Barbara, In 1641, the government ordered an oath to be written up which stated an allegiance to the 'true protestant faith' and a rejection of any 'popery'. It's acually about half a page long and uses terms of hostility towards Catholicism throughout. Copies of this oath were sent round to every parish in the country and it was required that all males over the age of 18yrs attend their parish church and sign it, whether they attended that church, or not. Some women also signed it, though not many. Many Catholics and some other non conformists refused to sign. A lot of pressure was brought to bear to make people sign, but some refused. Lists were drawn up, usually by vicar of the parish, of the names of those who signed and also those who refused to sign. These lists were returned to parliament. Penalties, mostly financial, were imposed on the non signatories. The government would have viewed the wealthy and powerful amongst them literally as 'enemies of the state'. I have looked at a couple of these reports held locally, but would like to see more. As my family were very strong Lancashire Catholics and the main branch (not ours, alas) very wealthy landowners, it would be useful for me to have a look at them. In fact, these are valuable social and historical documents anyway, as they more or less provide the names of everyone living in the area at that time.

Chris Thanks a lot. That's great. I'll have a look and maybe ask for some photcopies to be sent to me. Regards Amanda

I'm intreged - what are 'Recusant Lists'? Not heard of it before. Bx

Protestation Returns are at the House of Lords Record Office. The Record Office have a very good website. http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_publications_and_archives/parliamentary_archives.cfm And from their FAQ page.... I want...a Protestation Return Our online catalogue, Portcullis, contains details of all the Protestation Returns. You can search this to see if there are any of interest to you. Entering 'protestation returns' in the Any Text field, and '1641-1642' in the Date field will find them. You can then make an appointment to view them in our Westminster searchroom or else send us a request for a photocopy. Please note if you are interested in Derbyshire that the Derbyshire Protestation Returns are held by Derbyshire Record Office. Chris

I have been told that parish documents containing details of both signatories and non signatories of the 1641 Protestaion Oath are still held somewhere at the Houses of Parliament. Does anyone know who I should write to to ask about them? There are still some copies available at local archives and I have seen some of them, but would like to look at more.