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AnnMarieG
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9 Sep 2018 10:15 |
Big THANK YOU to all who have helped me on this subject. I have learned a lot.
Thanks again. :-) :-)
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AnnMarieG
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8 Sep 2018 10:03 |
rootgatherer, I have realised that after doing my family history its just that my nan was such a prim and proper person it was just such a shock to realise she wasnt married to my 'uncle Harry'. At least not for a good few years. I now realise why none of us knew that she had got married in 1954 as she then would have had to admit they wernt married before. ;-)
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rootgatherer
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7 Sep 2018 21:33 |
That was far more common than you think. Most people wouldn't have enough spare cash to spend on divorce so just lived together until their legal spouse died and they were free to marry. :-)
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AnnMarieG
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7 Sep 2018 18:27 |
ArgyllGran, I think it was proberly the latter as I don't know when my granddad died. It just goes to show what secrets this ancestry turns up. My nan was a very stern unforgiving sort of person and I am amazed she 'lived in sin' all those years. ;-)
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ArgyllGran
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7 Sep 2018 17:50 |
Perhaps they only married to avoid inheritance problems.
Or perhaps Alice wasn't free to marry, as RG suggested.
Who knows?!
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AnnMarieG
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7 Sep 2018 17:25 |
Thank you rootgatherer. They definatly did live together after 1946 (when I was born) as they lived next door to us but as a youngster I always thought they were married.I was very surprised when I found out they had married as late as 1954. I wonder why they waited so long. Another mystery.
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rootgatherer
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7 Sep 2018 16:53 |
Thanks ArgyllGran. The year is clearly 87 on the image. I found it by looking for Herbert, just in the off chance that Alice was living nearby. And hey presto! She's lurking in the same household. Not sure who the other couple are but maybe relatives of either Alice or Herbert.
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ArgyllGran
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7 Sep 2018 16:11 |
Yes!! Well done, RG.
Here's Herbert's death, with same DOB -
Herbert John Harridine in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007 Name: Herbert John Harridine Death Age: 82 Birth Date: 18 Sep 1902 Registration Date: May 1985 Registration district: Brentwood Inferred County: Essex Volume: 9 Page: 1444
Perhaps Alice's DOB is just a mistake by the enumerator - 87 instead of 78. Or maybe deliberate - she was c24 years older than Herbert after all!
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rootgatherer
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7 Sep 2018 16:05 |
??????
Could she have knocked a few years off her age?
They may have lived as husband and wife but not married until after George had died?
1939 REGISTER TRANSCRIPTION Oranski Household (5 People) 36a Dean Road , Willesden M.B., Middlesex, England Herbert J Harridine DOB 18 Sep 1902 SEX Male OCCUPATION Fitter-Assistant-Heavy Work MARITAL STATUS Married SCHEDULE 311 SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 5
~??? Oranski DOB 18 Jan 1906 SEX Female OCCUPATION Clerk MARITAL STATUS Married SCHEDULE 311 SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 1
~??? Oakley (Orkinski) DOB 20 Feb 1910 SEX Female OCCUPATION Unpaid Domestic MARITAL STATUS Married SCHEDULE 311 SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 2
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Alice Harridine DOB 16 Dec 1887 SEX Female OCCUPATION Unpaid Domestic MARITAL STATUS Married SCHEDULE 311 SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 4 Ref: RG101/0981C/021/24 Letter Code: © Findmypast Ltd
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ArgyllGran
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7 Sep 2018 15:55 |
Ah! Interesting -
In 1901, Alice is at home with her birth family. She's listed as married, but her married name isn't given. Maybe just a mistake by the enumerator. Or maybe the marriage had run into problems, although they were together again by 1911:
Alice Robertson in the 1901 England Census Name: Alice Robertson Age: 21 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880 Relation to Head: Daughter Gender: Female Father: Thomas Robertson Mother: Alice Robertson Birth Place: Islington, London, England Civil Parish: Willesden Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Registration district: Hendon Sub-registration district: Willesden ED, institution, or vessel: 45 Neighbors: Piece: 1222 Folio: 30 Page Number: 52 Household schedule number: 399 Household Members: Name Age Thomas Robertson 43 Alice Robertson 43 Thomas Robertson 24 Alice Robertson 21 Ernest Robertson 18 Albert Robertson 15
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AnnMarieG
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7 Sep 2018 15:27 |
Yes, think I will have to do that.
Anyway Thank You so much for all the info you have given me and all your time. Kindest regards. :-)
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ArgyllGran
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7 Sep 2018 15:12 |
However, I still can't find her in 1939!
I think you'll need to buy a copy of her birth cert, as posted above, to find out her exact DOB.
I'm guessing it's given wrongly in 1939, but at least if we had the full date, instead of just the year, we could maybe figure out which Alice is her in 1939.
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AnnMarieG
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7 Sep 2018 15:02 |
Thats right. This is her. Her husband registered her death.
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ArgyllGran
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7 Sep 2018 14:57 |
Marriages Sep 1954 (>99%) HARRIDINE Herbert J TUCKER Brentwood 4a 1154 Tucker Alice Harridine Brentwood 4a 1154
So is this perhaps her death ??
Alice Harridine in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007 Name: Alice Harridine Death Age: 87 Birth Date: abt 1877 Registration Date: Sep 1964 Registration district: Brentwood Inferred County: Essex Volume: 4a Page: 378
Also listed as Harradine:
Alice Harradine in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007 Name: Alice Harradine Death Age: 87 Birth Date: abt 1877 Registration Date: Sep 1964 Registration district: Brentwood Inferred County: Essex Volume: 4a Page: 378
Age at death depends on how accurate the informant's knowledge was.
Going by the dates of the two marriages, it look as if she was born during the last month or so of 1878 (or early 1879) , and her birth not registered until the start of 1879.
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AnnMarieG
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7 Sep 2018 14:49 |
just re looked up her certificates that I have. first marriage to George in 1899 she was 21 (1878) 2nd marriage to Herbert Harridine in 1954 she was 75 (1879) Died in 1964 she was 87. (1877)
:-S confused.
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ArgyllGran
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7 Sep 2018 14:49 |
Here are Alice and family in 1881:
Alice Ansley in the 1881 England Census Name: Alice Ansley Age: 2 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879 Relationship to Head: Daughter Father: Thomas Robertson Gender: Female Where born: Clerkinghall, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: St Mary County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 74 High Street Registration district: Islington Sub registration district: Islington East ED, institution, or vessel: 77 Neighbors: Piece: 273 Folio: 92 Page Number: 16 Household Members: Name Age Thomas Robertson 34 Alicia M. Ansley 24 Thomas W. Ansley 4 Alice Ansley 2 Earnest Ansley
So she was born somewhere between October 1878 and March 1879.
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ArgyllGran
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7 Sep 2018 14:24 |
The only Alice tucker I can see in Essex in 1939 is this one - single, and born 1880, so almost certainly not her:
Alice M Tucker in the 1939 England and Wales Register Name: Alice M Tucker Gender: Female Marital Status: Single Birth Date: 24 Dec 1880 Residence Year: 1939 Address: 15.Milton Crescent Residence Place: Ilford, Essex, England Occupation: Supervisor (Filing & Circularisin[g] ) Schedule Number: 140 Sub Schedule Number: 4 Enumeration District: CCWL Registration district: 191-2. Household Members: Name Mary J Coke Elsie M Coke Irene B Coke Alice M Tucker
How do you know her year of birth? Are you just going by her death record?
Her marriage record says she was 21, which (if she was telling the truth about her age) should mean her YOB was 1878 - or just possibly 1877.
Her father Thomas was a coachman. That means the 1891 census posted earlier by Malyon will probably be the correct one - Thomas is a groom and coachman on that one.
These are her siblings' births:
ROBERTSON, ALBERT mms ANSLEY GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 292
ROBERTSON, ARTHUR mms ANSLEY GRO Reference: 1883 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 403 (I can't see Arthur after this - presumably he died in infancy, though I don't see his death. In 1911 census Thomas and Alice say they've had 5 children, one of whom had died.)
ROBERTSON, ERNEST mms ANSLEY GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 732
Parents' marriage:
Marriages Mar 1882 (>99%) ANSLEY Alice Maud Islington 1b 456 ROBERTSON Thomas Islington 1b 456
Children Thomas and Alice were born to Alice Maud before she married.
ANSLEY, THOMAS WILLIAM - GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 405
ANSLEY, ALICE - GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 224
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AnnMarieG
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7 Sep 2018 13:18 |
ArgyllGran, WOW the info on George is fantastic. Thats more than I have ever been able to find.Thank you so much. FMP is free this weekend and I had a quick look and I think Alice may have been living in Essex but I cant open the records if this is any help.Just wish I knew her DOB.
I know from 1946 she was not living with George but dont know how long before that. Thank you for all your help so far.
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ArgyllGran
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7 Sep 2018 12:41 |
Having scoured the 1939 register for Alice Tuckers with no middle name, born 1879, I can't see any who aren't either married to someone other than George, single, or widowed.
It's possible that the DOB given in 1939 is incorrect - which is why it would be good to know Alice's actual DOB.
There is no birth in London of an Alice Robertson with no middle name, 1878-80.
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ArgyllGran
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7 Sep 2018 12:14 |
Do you know if Alice had siblings?
Malyon posted an 1891 census record for an Alice Robertson with father Thomas.
Here's another Alice with father Thomas, which would fit with the birth of Alice Maud (mms Evans):
Alice Robertson in the 1881 England Census Name: Alice Robertson Age: 2 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879 Relationship to Head: Daughter Father: Thomas J. Robertson Mother: Sarah Robertson Gender: Female Where born: Poplar, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Bromley St Leonard County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 40 Culloden St Registration district: Poplar ED, institution, or vessel: 43 Neighbors: Piece: 503 Folio: 86 Page Number: 34 Household Members: Name Age Thomas J. Robertson 35 Sarah Robertson 36 Sarah Robertson 9 Wilfred Robertson 5 Alice Robertson 2
Parents' marriage;
Marriages Sep 1866 (>99%) Evans Sarah Shoreditch 1c 336 ROBERTSON Thomas J Shoreditch 1c 336
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