Genealogy Chat

thanks for your info on Kingstone Infirmary death Pam

Not really - there could have been any number of reasons.

1) They were too devastated at the death of the child's mother
2) They weren't 'religious' - by 1912, the impetus wasn't as strong to arrange for a new born's baptism, especially as initially it looked as if the child might survive. England was a far more secular society than the previous century.
3) They couldn't afford the ceremony, and didn't realise that anyone could baptise a baby 'near to death'.
4) They believed in adult baptism, not child baptism
5) They weren't Christian.

With out a time machine, unfortunatley, it will probably remain a mystery.

New information continuing
I now have the Birth and Death certificates for baby that died in Kingstone Workhouise

The baby was born at home in Haydons Road Wimbledon on 15th november 1912. Grandmother present at birth

The baby died in Workhouse infirmary Kingstone on 17th January 1913
Grandmother present at death

Cauae of Death Intestinal indigestion.

Baby would have been 3 and half weeks old when Mother died
Does this give any more clues as to why baby not baptised?
Thanks Pam

Many many thanks for all the help with Kingstone Union Infirmary I have lots more clues now as to what happed. the baby was buried without a service (on the church records) Thanks again Pam

Also


care in the Workhouse Infirmary would be free ................... he would have had to pay for ALL medical and childcare expenses.


National Health did not come in until 1947 ....... before that, everyone had to pay the full cost. That is why you see so many people using the Workhouse Infirmary for childbirth, and for illnesses such as pneumonia, strokes, etc.

Pamela

Your grandfather was probably completely unable to take care of the baby ....... and it was probably also sickly ...... so he just gave it up to the Workhouse. He'd be too busy working, and probably did not have any relatives to help him


Workhouses usually did ensure that everyone was baptized ..... they were all for "saving" people's souls.

Hi Just got back from WDYTUR Olympia

Thanks for info on Burials in concecrated ground . I will dig out my certificates again. The baby also died in Kingstone Infirmary same as Mother I seem to remember the babys' one saying Union Workhouse . could that be significant. I am wondering why my Grandfather wasnt involved with this?
Thanks again Pam

Pamela

People had to have been baptised before they could be buried in consecrated ground.


The mother would have been baptised when a child, and so could be buried in consecrated ground.

The baby had not been baptised, and so was buried in non-consecrated ground


Actually, I find that last surprising because the baby did survive from 15 November 1912 and died on 12th January 1913 (according to your first post).


People usually tried to ensure that a baby who took only 1 or 2 breaths was baptized ......... this could be done by anyone in such a circumstance, so you didn't have to wait for a clergyman to arrive.

It also wasn't unknown for a midwife or other person in a room to baptise a still-born baby, and swear blue was black that it had taken a couple of breaths, just to prevent it being buried in unconsecrated ground.


Something very unusual must have happened for that baby not to be baptised.

Do you know where the baby died?




sylvia

Thank you so much I have found them both in Kingstone Cemetary please can anyone explain the details

The Mother is buried in Concecrated ground Class E Ceremony performed with Rev name

The baby is buried in Non Concecrated ground Class E
No ceremony performed

Many thanks Pam. need to make visit to Kingstone

http://www2.kingston.gov.uk/GraveRecords/

(not sure if link above any use)

Chris :)

Thanks for additional info. The death certificate of the Mother that died says.
When and Where died.

11th December 1912 The Union Infirmary Kingstone
Exact details on death certificare are

Informant
Certificate received from M H Taylor Coroner for Surrey Inquest held 14th December 1912

Cause of death
Syncope
PM
Puerperal Septicaemia
Death registered 16th December 1912

Cemeteries run by Merton Council, which includes Wimbledon Cem (Gap Rd Cem)

http://goo.gl/6frHH

There’s no real answer to this.

Although some Workhouses had cemeteries, other’s didn’t and made arrangements for the pauper bodies to be buried at their expense either in the local church yard, or council cemetery. Council cems tended to be opened from about 1850.

If the deceased was a patient who had been admitted to the Infirmary for medical treatment, his body could well have been returned to his family to bury at their expense.

The DC would tell you who the informant was, and the usual address. If this was different to the Infirmary Address, it could indicate that he was a patient and at not an inmate.

An *apparent* link to cemetery records to 1901

http://www.esds.ac.uk/findingData/snDescription.asp?sn=4423

Kingston Cemetery – they ‘may’ look up a burial as long as you have a DOD, but there may be a charge.

Kingston Cemetery
Bonner Hill Road,
Kingston upon Thames,
KT1 3EZ
The Bereavement Services Manager and Registrar is Howard Greenoff.
Telephone. 020 8546 4462
Fax 020 8546 4463
Email: [email protected]

I have been trying to find Burial details for the 2 people discussed in my previous post Would the Kingstone Infirmary have been involved in the burial and if so where might this have been? Many Thanks Pam

Thanks for link to Kingstone Infirmary Pam

There is information about the Workhouse and Infirmary (with photos) on this link

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Kingston/

"In 1897-9, a new infirmary complex was built at the north of the workhouse, together with a nurses' home. In 1902, the infirmary was separated from the workhouse and became known as Kingston Infirmary. During the First World War it provided care for military casualties. In 1920, it was renamed Kingston and District Hospital. "

Thank you for the details ref Kingston Union Infirmary it is good to have some background to this Pam

Inquest papers are very few and far between as very few have been kept.

Workhouses had their own Infirmaries too and these were open to the general public for people who couldn't afford private doctor care or needed hospital treatment for childbirth /illness etc .

Many people who were in the Infirmary were never in the Workhouse and objected to the implication that they were by the ref to Workhouse on certs. It was decreed .not sure when, that certs wouldn't show the refs to Workhouse Infirmary but the postal address for the Infirmary would be given as the place of birth or death.

Many London Workhouse Infirmaries were taken over by the old London County Council and administered as the local Hospital . some later became the local NHS Hospital when the NHS started in the 1940,s

Please does anyone know if there are records available for Kingston Union Infirmary Surrey 1912/13.. My Grandfathers first wife died there on 11 December 1912 age 21 after the birth of her child. The baby was born on 15 November 1912 and died on 12th January 1913.An inquest was held for the mother of the baby on 14th December 1912 (Surrey Coroner). This information is on her death certificate Was the Union Infirmary just a hospital as the baby certificate says Workhouse, and I was wondering why they were there. My Grandfather was living in Haydons Road Wimbledon at the time. Can I access the Inquest details?
Thank you