Genealogy Chat

Any lateral thinking would be very welcome.
A few weeks ago I received the death certificate for whom I believe to be my great grandfather Alfred Worboys born Hertford 1848, died 1931 aged 83.
So far so good.
But the informant was his daughter Florence, surname unreadable, but who the original registry office identified as Urch.
Up to that point I had no knowledge of a daughter, only four sons.
It looks as if Alfred and his wife seperated before 1901, I have only found her on that census living as a visitor, but married, with an apparently unrelated family. She died in 1918. The informant was her husband living at the address at which he died. Her address was where my father was born, so it all ties in.
Shortly after an Alfred Warboys married an Emma Martin.
In 1927 a Florence Martin married Charles Urch.
In 1931 Doris I Urch was born, mother's maiden name Martin.

Still with me?
My supposition is that Florence was either Alfred's illegitimate daughter or else Emma's daughter with her husband, that she was widowed but the description of "daughter" on Alfred's death certificate was inaccurate.

I have found a D I Urch in the telephone directory and wrote over a fortnight ago but have had no reply.

I have also found Doris Urch and her sister on GR and messaged the tree owner, who has not opened the message.

Do I chase up D I Urch, or presume that she does not want to or, for reasons or infirmity, cannot reply?

I have sent for the two marriage certificates (1918 and 1927) but would like to establish contact with the Urch family to confirm events.

Another thought - Doris b1931 could have married, so may be nothing to do with the D I Urch you have contacted.

Could be (sorry it was actually 1932) but the surname is not common, the initials matched, the location was right.
And I enclosed a stamped addressed envelope and asked for a reply either way.
Annoying !
Maybe the certificates will provided the answers anyway.

Yes, I think I'm probably being impatient.

I've had so much trouble and lack of information with my side of the family compared to my wife's where everyting is mainly local and documented, that I am tending to grasp at any straw that floats by.

No, I haven't identified him yet on 1901 or 1911.

Births Jun 1929
Urch Betty Martin Hackney 1b 623

Have you seen this birth as well?

There are six matches on site with a year of birth close but it doesn't match the birth area. Might be worth sending a quick message to the tree owners.

I've seen Betty's birth record on Freebmd, I presume she is Doris's sister.
Those were the only two whic looked likely going by the date and area.
I think I'll have to wait for the certificates and take it from there.

There are parts of Hertford missing from some of the census on Ancestry (can't remember which census though) so if Alfred was still in Hertford at that time it could explain why you can't find him.

Sorry Margaret, he WAS 83.
Serves me right for going by memory.

Hi,

Could he have changed his name??? Found this on the 1911;

HOUSEHOLD MARTIN ALFRED M 1849 62 Hackney London


First names ALFRED
Birth Year 1849
Birth Year +/- 3 years
Occupation CABINET MAKER
Birth Place HERTFORDSHIRE



Maybe worth looking???


Dee x

Found this ;

1901 England Census
about Alfred Martin
Name: Alfred Martin
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Hertfordshire, England

Civil parish: Walthamstow
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: Cabinet Maker

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Walthamstow
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 52
Household Members: Name Age
Alfred Martin 53
Ellen Martin 37 Born Gt Yarmouth
William Martin 13
Florence Martin 6
Edith Martin 4


Dee x

Again using the 1911 advanced search options;

HOUSEHOLD MARTIN ALFRED M 1849 62 Hackney London
HOUSEHOLD MARTIN ELLEN F 1865 46 Hackney London
HOUSEHOLD MARTIN FLORRIE ELLEN F 1895 16 Hackney London
HOUSEHOLD MARTIN WILLIAM THOMAS M 1888 23 Hackney London


Ellen was also stating she was born in Gt Yarmouth on this census.
Last names MARTIN
County London
District Hackney
Other person last names MARTIN
Other person first names EDITH MARY


Edith Mary Martin was born 1897 on the 1911 census


I can't see William Thomas Martin on the 1891 census!!!!


Dee x

Is this the marriage you mentioned??

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1918 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Ellen M Warboys Hackney 1b 1036
Warboys Alfred Martin Hackney 1b 1036


So did Alfred take on Ellens surname in the 1901 and 1911 censuses???


Dee x

Denise, you are a star.

That all seems to tie in: Alfred's birthplace, date and occupation, children (or at least child Florence) Ellen.
That is the certificate I've sent for.

I did look at the address of 15 Laurel Street, Dalston on the 1911 census a few weeks ago and think it said Martin, but at that time the name meant nothing.

That is the marriage certificate I'm expecting, so it all looks great.

Nobody in my family mentioned anything about this, my parents died in the early 1990s, so maybe my father either didn't know, didn't think to mention it or covered it up.

The 1918 marriage certificate has arrived and it's all falling into place.
Ellen's father's name was Brown , she was a widow.
Subject to final checking:
I've found her birth in Gt. Yarmouth in 1864.
I've found her marriage to Joseph Martin in 1886.
I've found Joseph's death in 1893.
And Florences birth in 1894.
Added to her marriage to Alfred in 1918 after his first wife died it all comes together.
Thanks again to Denise for suggesting he might have changed his name to hers rather than the other way round.

Hi Brian,

That's great news............ so pleased it's all fallen into place for you.

All the best, Dee x

Success, I think.
A niece of the lady I wrote to has emailed me. She is into family history and her aunt passed my letter on to her.

The side that I have been looking at has been a brick wall for her, so if I am right, and all the certificates and censuses point that way, I've got a new branch and she's go a new root.

It's all worked out great.
My suppositions have been proved correct and I'm in contact with two of my "new" family.
We've exchanged data and are all as pleased as a dog with two tails !

hello Brian
Read your trek!! all the way through and am glad it turned out OK for you.
Isnt it lovely when things slot into place and you can say YEHHHH got yar!!
I have had some Eureka moments too when helping in searches and the info hidden suddenly fall into place ,gives me a buzz as if it was MY family .
Enjoy!!
Shirley