Genealogy Chat

Hi Kate: I'm amazed that my distant rellie's information is turning out to possibly have some merit. As I mentioned, I don't know where she obtained her information.

Margaret: A distant rellie told me about the 1849 marriage, but I had not seen the actual information. Thank you for finding it; I now know how she determined George Furnival's father. (Or, at least one of the ways of finding him.) Thank you for finding Louisa and Harriet's information. There is no mention of Charlotte (yet), but it also seems strange that there is such an age difference between Charlotte and her sisters. I wonder if there were other siblings who have yet to be found?

I have absolutely no information about the Lee's. :((( As I mentioned earlier, Charlotte and George named their children after (some?) family members. Isaac and Ann were not names handed down to Charlotte's children or grandchildren.

Thank you both very, very much for your information and attempts to help. Now that we are finding so much information, I really would like to see if we can determine where people fit in.

PS A few years ago, one of my distant rellies told me about a fire at a tannery that George Furnival's father or grandfather owned and at that time I checked google and found information about it. I now do not see the information on line. I also uncovered a protrait of George's father or grandfather, and that, too, is not to be found on the internet now. :(

Do you know when your Thomas Lee was born, Lisa?
Could this be him on BVRI?

LEIGH, Thomas Christening
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 12 Apr 1807 Recorded in: Warrington, Lancashire, England
Collection: BTs
Father: Isaac LEIGH
Mother: Ann
Source: FHL Film 1468986 Dates: 1797 - 1818

There are these births on BVRI but no Charlotte:

LEE, Louisa Christening
Gender:
Birth Date: 17 Sep 1836 Birthplace: Of Latchford
Christening Date: 26 Sep 1836 Recorded in: Grappenhall, Cheshire, England
Father: Thomas LEE
Mother: Louisa
Source: FHL Film 1655824 Dates: 1823 - 1890

LEE, Harriet Christening
Gender:
Birthplace: Of Latchford
Christening Date: 5 Sep 1838 Recorded in: Grappenhall, Cheshire, England
Father: Thomas LEE
Mother: Louisa
Source: FHL Film 1655824 Dates: 1823 - 1890

Hi Lisa,
Not sure if you already have this? It's from BVRI:

FURNIVAL, George Age: 23 Marriage
Wife: Charlotte LEE Age: 22
Marriage Date: 26 Aug 1849 Recorded in: Latchford, Cheshire, England
Husband's Father: John FURNIVAL
Wife's Father: Thomas LEE
Source: FHL Film 1656402 Dates: 1838 - 1906

Could be that the Legh in question was a younger son of a younger son etc, Lisa. The right to inherit the property would probably have gone to the eldest surviving son on the death of the father - after a few generations, a younger son of a younger son of a younger son could quite easily have to work for a living because the bulk of the money would more than likely go to the eldest.

I think Lyme Hall is also known as Lyme Park today. It's where the BBC filmed part of Pride and Prejudice in 1995, actually. I knew the Legh name sounded familiar - now I remember why.

If it was pronounced "Lee" over time it could have mutated from "Legh" into "Lee", "Lea" or "Leigh" - spelling was a bit fluid then.

Following up on Kate's 1871 census finding:
Husband
unknown Lee
Wife
Louisa unknown

1. Harriet Lee
Born: 1838 - IOM?
Marr: - Gilbert Torrance
Died: 28 May 1913 - Douglas, IOM

If Louisa De Jongh Lee was indeed married to a Legh, why wasn't the family living at Lyme Hall? Thomas Lee was a merchant, according to his daughter's christening. I don't have any information about Thomas, including when he was born or when he died.

My rellie who wrote "Some Family Facts" died. Her son (nephew?) also passed away some years ago. I don't know how I can find out where she obtained her information.

http://pages.prodigy.net/brinnand/1993-Ramblings/cruise3d.htm
"...There are some pleasant walks in the nearby hills and to the east are the remains of a couple of Saxon crosses and a large parkland that surrounds the 14th century Lyme Hall. This Elizabethan home was the residence of the Legh family up until 1947, when it was turned over to the nation in payment of death taxes..." !!!

It's almost 1:30 a.m. here. I have to go to work in a few hours. If anyone has any idea of how we can determine if my Lee's were actually part of the Legh family, or has any suggestions about finding a connection with Louisa (1803) and Maurice De Jongh, I would truly appreciate it. Thank you for taking the time to read all of this.

Regarding the paper I have written by a distant relative - I didn't include a paragraph because I had done research and the paragraph is incorrect. I am now wondering if the author mixed up the surnames.

The rest of the paper:
"Some Family Facts
My grandmother, Maria de Yongh Smith was a Furnival. Her grandmother was a Furnival of Lime Hall, Disley, Chester Eng. Great grandfather Furnival didn't have enough money when he died to pay death dues, so turned his estate into a museum so it couldn't be sold.

His son, George Furnival...married a Charlotte Lee. They were silk manufacturers..."

As far as I can see, Furnivals were not connected to Lyme Hall. However, Legh families were. I just found this:
http://www.rainow.org/Macklesfelde-in-ye-olden-time.html
"...In 1785 some Lancashire gentlemen came to Macclesfield and erected a manufactory for spinning cotton, on the banks of the Bollin (the building was burnt down a few years ago), in the part of the town called "the Waters." And the business, it seems, was carried on for some time with locked doors, and the workmen were sworn to secrecy. No person unconnected with the works was admitted; only women were permitted to gratify their curiosity with a view of the cotton spinning process, and, as the cotton manufacturer gave higher wages than the silk throwster could afford, the consequence was, a large number of the people left the silk for the cotton. To counteract this, the silk throwsters had to advance their wages, and in a short time the millmen employed in the silk mills were paid about sixteen shillings a week, on an average the doublers from eight and sixpence to ten shillings, and children 2s. 6d., 3s., 4s., and 5s. per week, according to their dexterity.

THE FIRST SILK MILL
for the manufacture of silk, it appears, was begun by the Messrs. Legh and Voce, in Back street, (now called King Edward - street), in the year 1790..."

I wonder if the Furnivals of Lime Hall should actually be the Legh's (perhaps Thomas Lee, Louisa's husband should be Legh?) of Lyme Hall? I do realize the last bit about the death dues is incorrect.

I don't know where my distant relative obtained her information. Obviously, it was before computers and the internet.

Any thoughts very greatly appreciated!!!

My mum remembers listening to my dad's father talk about his English roots. He never mentioned this side of the family.

However, a distant relative wrote (unknown year):
"...Grandfather Furnival married a Charlotte Lee. They [Lee's] were silk manufacturers, Israeli French, the last "tribe" to come over to England in 1066. (The Isles of the Sea")
They are recorded in the Doomesday Book..."

I don't know where she got this information. I don't see how it could be true.

I believe a Maurice De Jongh was Louisa (born 1803) De Jongh's father. This is some of what I have found out about him:

"The London Journal of Arts and Sciences...Recent Patents
...To Maurice De Jongh, of Warrington, in the County Palatine of Lancaster, Cotton Spinner, for his New Invented Mode of Constructing and...Sealed 28th February, 1824"

"The Register of Arts, and Journal of Patent Inventions
"Spinning - To Maurice de Jongh, of Warrington, for improvements in Spinning Machinery. Sealed March 29, 1825 - Six months."

And in France:
http://www.fivesgroup.com/FivesCeles/EN/Profile/Pages/History.aspx
"1833: Maurice DE JONGH (born in Amsterdam in 1774, Engineer at Nicolas SCHLUMBERGER in Guebwiller), buys on July 11th from Jean Friess an eight hammer mill built by par Jean Yelsch in 1829 in a old ironworks named "Obere Hammerschmied"...
Maurice DE JONGH and his sons modified the mill...In 1840 the factory employed 11 men...48 women...and 17 children."

Perhaps Louisa De Jongh Lee was given money by her (possible) father, or through the possible success of her husband's business???

Kate and Jackie, thank you so much for your interest in this story. I will try googling a bit now to see if I can find some connection to the families the Lee's were living with/visiting.

annuitant can mean that they are receiving money from some sort of investement

Jackie

Found Louisa again in the Isle of Man in 1861, which sorts out what happened to her family up to 1871 or so. (Except for her husband, of course.)

Arbory Street S.W. Side, Castletown, Isle of Man
Louisa Lee Head Mar 58 Landed Proprietor b. England
Louisa Lee Daur Unm 24 b. England
Harriett Lee Daur Unm 22 b. England
Charlotte (Cowrin?) Serv Unm 18 House Servant b. Isle of Man Castletown

May have found Louisa (1802/03) in the Isle of Man in 1871 - with her daughter Harriet(t).

1871 - 24 North Quay, Douglas, Isle of Man
Gilbert Torrance Head Mar 56 Merchant ship owner employing about 60 men b. I of Man Douglas
Harriett Torrance Wife Mar 32 b. England Warrington
Gilbert Torrance Son 7 Scholar b. I of Man Douglas
Allan Torrance Son 5 Scholar b. I of Man Douglas
Harriett Torrance Daur 3 b. I of Man Douglas
Joseph A Torrance Son 4m b. I of Man Douglas
Louisa Lee Mother-in-law 68 Annuitant b. England Manchester
Catherine Kelly Servant 23 General Servant b. Isle of Man German

I feel as though there is something odd about the absence of Louisa's husband, Thomas. If she was an annuitant, that sounds like she was getting some kind of allowance, perhaps left to her by someone? But she is also an annuitant in 1851 and says she is married, so presumably not something left to her by Thomas?

Just found "little" Louisa in 1851 - don't know why I couldn't see her last night, but here she is (with the rest of the family) visiting a family called Pendlebury.

1851 address - Latchford, Cheshire
Joseph Pendlebury Head Mar 53 Yeoman b. Appleton Cheshire
Sarah Pendlebury Wife Mar 47 b. High Legh Cheshire
William Pendlebury Son Mar 20 Smith b. Appleton Cheshire
John Pendlebury Son Unm 18 Ag Lab b. Appleton Cheshire
Wright Pendlebury Son 12 Scholar b. Appleton Cheshire
Louisa Lee Visitor Mar 48 Annuitant b. Manchester
Louisa Lee Visitor Unm 14 Annuitant b. Latchford Cheshire
Harriet Lee Visitor 12 Annuitant b. Latchford Cheshire

Just looking over the 1841 census I typed out, Lisa - no occupation was given for Alice Simcock but I think the "F.S" after Ann Pownall probably stands for female servant. Perhaps Alice was a servant or a visitor? Unfortunately relationships aren't given on the 1841 census.

Thank you very much for your help. I wasn't expecting anything so quickly!

1841 census: those are my Lees. I don't know who Ann and Alice are. I hadn't heard of Harriet and Louisa before someone found them on the 1841 census, but they certainly are names that were handed down generations. (Thank you for referencing this census.)

Kate, thank you for the Lancashire site. I will check there for this family as well as the Furnivals. Thank you for the 1851 census as well.

Rose, until yesterday, I didn't know about Louisa De Jongh (from the 1871 census). I can only guess that she might be Charlotte Lee Furnival's cousin?

I believe the Furnival's landed in Canada around 1869-1871. Perhaps Louisa came with them or perhaps she was already there? Charlotte and George had 11 (living) children and I believe they all made the voyage. Perhaps Louisa travelled with them to help???

Thank you Kate and Rose for your help. I really am at a loss as what to do next. I've googled Maurice De Jongh and found a bit about him and his wife, but I can't link Maurice to Charlotte Lee or to Louisa De Jongh (born c1802). I would think there is a connection, however, as it was an uncommon name and all three were living in Warrington. I think I'll try googling again for Louisa De Jongh (who was in Toronto in 1871).

Hi Lisa,

I found the 1871 entry:

Return to results | Search | Search Help
DE JONGH, LOUISA
Sex:
Female
Age:
47
Place of Birth:
FRANCE
Religion:
Church of England, Anglican
Origin:
FRENCH
District:
TORONTO WEST (046)
Sub-district:
St. George's Ward (A)
Division:
1
Page:
1
Microfilm reel number:
C-9969
Reference:
RG31 — Statistics Canada


Is there any way of knowing if she were widowed or single?

Rose

It looks as though Charlotte Lee and George Furnival married in the district of Warrington in the Sept qtr of 1849 (vol 20 pg 879).

1851 census - Legh Street, Warrington
George Furnival Head 24 Printer compositor and press (man?) b. Latchford Cheshire
Charlott Furnival Wife 24 b. Lancashire Warrington
Mary Wrench Servant 19 Servant b. Cheshire Runcorn

So no brothers and sisters staying there . . .

The Lancashire Online Parish Clerk site (really good because you can search the whole county if you're not sure where ancestors might be) has this christening at St. Elphin, Warrington.

Charlotte Lee 26 Apr 1827 to Thomas Lee (a merchant) and Louisa of Sankey Street.

This may help as a starting point - I'm trying to get what I can find into words, more than anything!

1841 - Butter Market Street?, Warrington, Lancashire
Louisa Lee 38 School m b. Lancs
Charlotte Lee 14 b. Lancs
Harriet Lee 2 b. Lancs
Ann Pownall 26 F.S. b. Lancs
Alice Simcock 15 b. Lancs
Louisa Lee 4 b. Lancs

My ancestor was (Lydia?) Charlotte Lee, born 1827, Warrington, England. Charlotte's mother was Louisa de Jongh (or de Yongh).

I've found a Louisa Dejong/Dyongh on IGI, born c1802, Manchester. A Louisa De Jongh married a Thomas Lee, 1826, Warrington.

Charlotte and her husband, George Furnival, settled in Toronto, Canada prior to 1871. They lived in Toronto West during the 1871 census.

I found a Louisa De Jongh on the 1871 Ontario Census. She was age 47 and born in France. She was living in Toronto West. (A kind GR member gave me information about two Louisa De Jongh's on immigration records. One record is the actual census; the other record was for someone born in the 1840's.)

After researching the De Jongh name, I found a Maurice De Jongh, born c1774, Netherlands, who lived in both Warrington and France. I believe Maurice was Louisa De Jongh's (born c1802) father.

Charlotte named (some of) her children: Lydia Louise, George Maurice, Charlotte Harriet, and Maria de Yongh. Some of these names were passed down a generation later.

My question: who might Louisa De Jongh, from the 1871 census be? Possibly a granddaughter of Maurice De Jongh (he had at least two sons)? It couldn't be coincidence that she was living in Toronto; Toronto wasn't that populated, and she had such an uncommon name.

I do not have access to English census returns. I cannot find out anything else about Louisa De Jongh, born c1824. I'm wondering if she is connected to my Charlotte Lee Furnival.

Sorry for the lengthy post. Thank you in advance for any suggestions. By the way, I started researching when I was in college, about 30 years ago. I would love to be able to find out more about this family.