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Wow, Heather , Blossom and Janet thats great info, im off to SP to get cert, I can't thank you enough, I have been searching for a while, I am working backwards from a birth in 1937 so dont have any info on Mary Ann's father or mother, my only clue was ithe 1881 census if thats them says she was born in England.
I have another problem now, after looking at Charles 2 MC on one he has mother Mary Ann Mattie, on the other cert his wife has her as her mother and he has a different mother, I think it must be a mistake, can I please PM someone to have a look at certs as I think I am going crazy.
Sandra x
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I know it says Mary Jane but I wonder if this is her - the address is about right:
1871 Scotland Census
about Mary Jane Mattie
Name: Mary Jane Mattie
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relationship: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: England
Registration Number: 282/3
Registration district: St Clement
Civil Parish: Dundee
County: Angus
Address: 2 Coutties Wynd
Occupation: Millworker
ED: 6
Household schedule number: 133/1
Line: 16
Roll: CSSCT1871_51
Household Members:
Name Age
Susan McKay 46
Jane McKay 18
Susan McKay 16
John McKay 14
Mary Jane Mattie 15
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Bingo!!
1 1878 RADER JAMES MATTEY MARY ANN ST MARY DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS 282/02 0032 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER
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Oh Mathie is a much more likely one :) Have another search as Im just about to serve up dinner. But this should be a bit better now
What was Williams job? There is a family on the 1861 in Notts with a daughter Mary matthey - dad is william but mum is Ann. Though I guess Sarah could use a second name. Dad is a miner and appears to have a bro John living up the road.
Name: Mary Ann Matthy
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Kirkley, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Kirkby in Ashfield
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Registration district: Basford
Sub registration district: Greasley
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 38
Household Members:
Name Age
William Matthy 27
Ann Matthy 25
John H Matthy 4
William Matthy 3
Mary Ann Matthy 1
This lot in Durham are interesting too, note some of the kids born scotland. But mum is Mary not Sarah. Could be that Sarah died and William remarried though ??
Name: William Mathie
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil Parish: St James
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View Image
Registration district: Stockton
Sub registration district: Stockton
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 36
Household Members:
Name Age
William Mathie 39
Mary Mathie 37
Elizabeth Mathie 17
William Mathie 12
Mary Mathie 10
Jane Mathie 5
Ellen Mathie 3
John Thomas Mathie 1
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Could it have been an irregular marriage?
Info from University of Glasgow website.
Scotland was famous for its distinctive marriage arrangements, which owed much to pre-Reformation canon law, and were based on principles of mutual consent rather than religious ceremony. Both 'regular' and 'irregular' marriages were recognised by the law. A 'regular' church marriage, requiring marriage banns to be read in the church some weeks in advance, was the usual practice, and from 1834 'priests and ministers not of the established church' were also allowed to conduct legal marriage ceremonies. In Scotland, regular marriages did not have to take place within a church building; indeed, they were more likely to take place in private homes. Even so, at first sight, Scotland's system seemed more religious in practice than England's, because civil ceremonies in a register office were not possible until after an Act of Parliament in 1939.
But Scotland's fame for distinctive marriage practices stemmed from 'irregular' marriages. There were three ways of forming a legal marriage without banns or a minister being present.
1. A couple were legally married if they declared themselves to be so in front of witnesses, regardless of whether this was followed by a sexual connection. Marriage contracted in this way without witnesses was also legal, but much harder to prove in court unless there was other evidence, such as letters that confirmed what the couple had done.
2. A promise of marriage, followed by a sexual relationship, was regarded as a legal marriage - but this had to be backed up by some kind of proof, such as a written promise of marriage, or an oath sworn before witnesses.
3. Marriages 'by habit and repute' were also legal if a couple usually presented themselves in public as husband and wife, even if no formal declaration of marriage was made.
Irregular marriages were frowned on by law and the churches, and couples who admitted to them were fined, but they had the same inheritance rights as regularly married couples, and their children were legitimate. Although the Church of Scotland did not approve of irregular marriages, it tolerated them because it feared that if the law did not recognize such relationships, the couple would end up 'living in sin.' The system was believed to protect women from unscrupulous men who might seduce them with promises of marriage or fake wedding ceremonies. After registration was introduced, an irregular marriage could be registered if the couple presented themselves before a sheriff or magistrate, were 'convicted' as parties to an irregular marriage, and paid a fine. Some found marriage by sheriff's warrant a cheaper and quicker alternative than all the expense of banns and a regular marriage ceremony. Marriages established in court by a Decree of Declarator could also be registered, on production to the registrar of an extract of the Decree and payment of £1, but this was not common. In fact, irregular marriages were infrequent in Scotland in the mid-nineteenth century, and fewer than 100 per year took place between 1855 and 1870. After that, the numbers rose steadily, and then rapidly in the early twentieth century, until they accounted for over 12% of all Scottish marriages in 1914. They remained at this level until the Second World War.
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Sorry, its me again Heather, just looked at DC of Charles,Son of Maryann, it says Mother Mary Ann Mathie, all these different spellings are driving me mad.
Charles was married 2 so I have both certs still cant clearly make them out.
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Just tried SP Heather, there is no Sarah Reader born between 1878 and 1881, yet she is on the 1881 census as 1 year old, I will go and try Freebmd to look for marriage of Sarah Weston
Regards
Sandra
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I only have the death cert of Maryann it says other names matie, she dies in 1931 and is 74 years old, I cant find a marriage in Scotland for her and James.
The only other info I have Heather is the 1881 census if its them I posted before, I will try again for the child Sarah,
Sandra
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Have you got the actual certs?
If you go to freebmd, enter marriages as the event and then Sarah Weston with spouse first name William - you could check to see if anything looks like it could be misread as Matie but Ive had a go from 1851-1861 and not seen anything as yet.
It could be they didnt marry in England of course - do you have any more detail re her parents or her place of birth.
I see they have a one year old daughter in 1881 - Sarah - born scotland. Have you got any of the kids birth certs?
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I think it must be Heather, I was wondering if it was Matthews, do you think its possible to find the name tracking her mother Sarah Weston ?,
Sandra
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Sorry, but are you sure of that surname -Matie, Mattie? Doesnt appear to be any instances of it on census. Could it have been misread?
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Name: Maryann Reader
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relationship: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: England
Registration Number: 282/3
Registration district: St Clement
Civil Parish: Dundee
County: Angus
Address: 22 St Margarets Close
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 121
Line: 15
Roll: cssct1881_84
Household Members: Name Age
Margaret Devine 46
John Devine 15
James Reader 26
Maryann Reader 22
Sarah Reader 1
John Hannah 24
James Douglas 53
Elizabeth Douglas 45
John H Elliot 31
Catherine Elliot 36
Simon Dunn 60
Margaret Dunn 55
William MacKie 22
Bridget MacKie ??3
Can anyone please help me find a marriage for James Reader, I have searched Scottish records and can't find one, I think this is the correct couple above.
On there son Charles's marriage cert in 1898 it says his mother's MS is Mary Ann Mattie, on Mary Ann's DC it says her M & F are William Matie and Sarah Weston, can you please help me tie this info together.
Here's hoping,
Sandra x
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