Genealogy Chat

Born 1868, London, Hilton Horton Bertram Rodgers, I thought that lot was bad enough, parents John Rodgers and Amelia Jane Wymer. Married Mary Anne Waghorn, also London, in 1901, but by then he is Hilton Horton Bertram D'Cardonel Rodgers. Where did the D'Cardonel come from?

His father, John Rodgers, was a Captain in the Army in India, born there - is this an Indian connection? No idea. Any help appreciated.

Margaret

Might it be that the male Cardonel line had ended, and property was to pass to nephews/great-nephews etc? Sometimes the name would be added to one of the children to indicate that the family were keen to keep the name alive (the property being merely of passing interest!)

(I'm assuming that d' is an indication that he had an ancestor called Cardonel, as in "of Cardonel", but it may be that there is a d' Cardonel, or a place called Cardonel?)

Actually, perhaps not, see 1881:

Name: H.H.B.C. Cardonel
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Amelia J.
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Marlebone
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 19 Rathbone Pl
Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Marylebone
Sub registration district: All Souls
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Amelia J. Cardonel 35
H.H.B.C. Cardonel 13
John H.M. Cardonel 8

Another ref on Ancestry is this one:

England, Scotland, Ireland: Musgrave's Obituaries Prior to 1800, parts 1 & 2
Obituary Prior to 1800 (as far as Relates to England, Scotland, and Ireland), Compiled by Sir William Musgrave, 6th Bart., of Hayton Castle, Co. Cumberland, and Entitled by him "A General Nomenclator and Obituary, with Referrence to the Books Where the Persons are Mentioned, and Where some Account of their Character is to be Found."
County: General
Country: England
Cardonel, Adam de, Antiquar., Edinb. (Liv. Auth.)

At a guess, does that mean that Adam de Cardonel, Antiquitarian, wrote this book on obituaries, published in Edinburgh and alive when the bibliography was compiled?

Ivy, you have hit on something vital! Many thanks. I never thought of looking for a surname Cardonel. Definitely him. Wonder why no siblings Charlotte, Ernest or Reginald, but you have now added John H.M. who has been referred to on a website somewhere and about whom I knew nothing. I still know nothing, but that there is a son John that I didn't know about. So I am assuming that the surname is Cardonel, am I right?

Will take a look now.

Re your second post, re the book, I don't understand any of it, if you are able to explain please do. It seems you are implying that Adam De Cardonel was the author of this book - sorry to be so thick - so I need to suss this out.

Oh, so many thanks for just finding the name and a possible link forwards. D'Cardonel foxed me completely. I might come back for more help!

Margaret

Hi Margaret,

I'm glad that has helped a bit. I'd keeep an open mind on whether it is Cardonel, de Cardonel or d'Cardonel - it might well be recorded as any of these (and then transcribed as something else!)

On the book ref, it is too condensed to be clear. Certainly Musgrave was compiling material that included obituaries from before 1800, but it does not seem to state when he did this. It seems that he then published his collection in a book entitled "A General Nomenclator and Obituary, with Referrence to the Books Where the Persons are Mentioned, and Where some Account of their Character is to be Found." Ancestry are collaborating in making digitised scanned copies of old books available and indexing the contents. It is therefore possible that a book by Adam de Cardonel was mentioned by Musgrave, that reference being extracted by Ancestry when Musgrave's book was digitised. Alternatively, AdC might himself be a bibliographer who published books/lists of books that included a reference to Musgrave's book.

Googling for this, Musgrave's publication was in at least 6 vols and is available on CD.
Looking just for Adam and Cardonel brings up references to an MP for Southampton in the early 1700s and this website:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/509207

(I'm not authorised to access its contents, it tells me)

is found by Google with this accompanying text extract:

"... the father of Adam de Cardonel, secretary to the duke of Marlborough. The D.N.B. article on Adam shows that Peter was the uncle of the secretary ..."

I think that DNB is likely to be the Dictionary of National Biography. You can probably find a copy in the ref section of larger libraries.

While that still doesn't answer the question of what on earth that Ancestry extract means, it shows that this might be an interesting family to research!

All the best

Ivy, I am still no further as to where Cardonel comes from. Amelia definitely married John Rodgers and the children are his (no birth found for young John H.M.,tried Rodgers and Cardonel and similar). John Rodgers Snr died between 1873 and 1881, the only death I have found being Q4 1880, his occupation described as "Clerk in Holy Orders", dying at St Thomas's Vicarage, Goswell Road, Holborn, London, attended by the GP. I am tending to think this is the correct man because Amelia Jane, his wife, was the daughter of a Rector in Norfolk. I can't find anything about this vicarage at all.

Googling John Rodgers pulls up a website with a picture of him, a Captain in the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), which would tie in with the 1871 census in London, and his marriage certificate. He retired from the Cameronians in 1851 but went on to join the 6th West York Militia. Can find no info on them. Son Ernest Edward appears to have served in the army until 1919, promoted to Sergeant.

The article also says that John was son of James Rodgers, Cameronians, and was born in India which also ties up with the 1871 census of him. I did find a birth in India but they would not send a certificate because I did not have an exact date of birth.

But apart from the 1881 census, no other mention of Cardonel.

How did you find the book on Ancestry? I cannot locate it.

It does not help that at least some of the family were not known by their first names - Hilton Horton was Bertram, Charlotte was Helen, and mother Amelia was Jane.

She remarries Thomas Woolley in 1885, still no mention of Cardonel. Apart from Hilton, I cannot find any of them after 1881 (1871 for the older ones, though even Charlotte the eldest was only 16 in 1881).

I googled for the article you found, also found the reference to the secretary to the Duke of Marlborough. I'll have to try the original work.

Thanks for your help so far, if you have any more bright ideas, let me know. By far the most interesting family in my tree so far - sadly not even my relative but that of my cousin's husband who died 4 years ago. She is 70 in November, I am doing this as a surprise present.

Margaret

Margaret

Hi Margaret,

I wondered whether asking Ancestry to find Cardon*l as a forename would produce any more results, and there are quite a few. The name mainly appears when the individual has several forenames (eg Arthur Baron de Cardonnel Dynevor - peer b Fairford Glouc 1836), and it may be that Amelia's surname was dropped in 1881 for reasons of space?

There are also more extracts from Musgrave's book and this one looked interesting because it includes the name Hylton:

'England, Scotland, Ireland: Musgrave's Obituaries Prior to 1800, parts 1 & 2
Obituary Prior to 1800 (as far as Relates to England, Scotland, and Ireland), Compiled by Sir William Musgrave, 6th Bart., of Hayton Castle, Co. Cumberland, and Entitled by him "A General Nomenclator and Obituary, with Referrence to the Books Where the Persons are Mentioned, and Where some Account of their Character is to be Found."
County: General
Country: England
Cardonnel, Anne de, dau. of - Hylton, relict of Mansfeld C., Commissioner for Customs in Scotland. 23 Jul 1786. (S.M. 363.)'

Unfortunately, Ancestry do not give a link to the scanned page of Musgrave's book. To get to the info that Ancestry have on this book, go to Ancestry's home page, click the historical records tab (the furthest left of the four tabs) and do an exact search for Cardon*l as a first or middle name. On the results page, under the BMD heading there are 21 parish and probate results - click this and you find that 10 of these 21 are from Musgrave's obituaries.

There is a family from Doncaster using the name d* Cardon*l as a middle name, which seems to be taken from their mother, who was born in Scotland about 1794. There are a couple of GR members with this family in their tree - click on the search trees button at the top of this page and search for Mans* Elmsall. You can click on the right to send a personal message to these members to see if they have further info. (Of course you may already have done this!)

I cannot find John H M births in London around 1873 for Cardon*l, Wym* or Rog*, but there is this birth:

John Hubert Rodgers 1872 Oct-Nov-Dec Kensington Greater London, London, Middlesex

I haven't yet checked to see whether he died before 1881 or is with another family in 1881.

Ivy, it just seems to be you and me on the trail of the Cardonels, I am so grateful for your time, but to be fair I have done my best to help others in their searches so I don't feel too guilty.

I imagine that John Hubert is the John HM, Kensington is about right. I'll check him out now in 1881.

There would seem to be a Scottish connection, with the Cameronians. I wish I could find out who posted the info on John Rodgers on the website I found. But that didn't refer to Cardonel.

Off to look at the suggestions you have made.

Many thanks

Margaret.

Dear Ivy

Thanks again for the help and advice. I tried the Cardon*l as a first name, and I got 52 entries! I wouldn't have thought of doing this as I am used to searching for boring people like Fred Stokes.

You say the Musgrave works are available on CD - where do I get them, and how much will it cost? I don't want to go overboard on all this, but by far the most interesting family to have hit me yet! So am not averse to spending a few quid. Though another Genes member tells me I am related to Nell Gwynn!

I found the two people you mentioned on Genes, have contacted them both. Thanks. Would never have found them without your help.

Am slightly interested in Reginal Cardonel Clark born Bath, Q4 1871, as my John had a son Reginald (but have found his birth in London), but Adam de Cardonel was reputed to have visited Bath.

Still can't decide where Cardonels come in. Until 1871 no mention. In 1881, as you told me, Amelia and children are called Cardonel. Given that husband John died in 1880, I wonder if he uttered something on his deathbed regarding Cardonel. I have no idea at the moment as to who his mother was, only his father as James Rodgers, and the fact that John was born in India (how do I get his birth cert/records?). Some of these noble names were passed down through the female line, so I am assuming at this point that the Cardonel comes from John's mother, and was only imparted to his family at his death. Hence the temporary use of Cardonel in their names. Am I daft?

Hilton Horton Betram seems to carry it on through life, but then he was a showman so it perhaps suited him to do so.

More work to do, but am getting muddled again.

Thanks for all your help thus far.

Margaret

Hi Margaret,

I have found a couple of refs to Musgrave's for sale. One is for £30, but it seems to be a CD of miscellanies including Musgrave. The other is offered for £12 by

http://www.midlandshistoricaldata.org

- they say:

"Musgrave's Obituary (1900)

Sir William Musgrave compiled his obituary during the 18th century from extracts from books and newspapers held in his own collection. The original manuscript contained overseas obituaries as well, but the Harleian Society (who compiled this edition) decided that the task of transcribing these as well was too onerous. Nevertheless, this national obituary is a useful source for the period up to the end of the 18th century.

Kindly loaned to the project by the Birmingham and Midland Institute."

I've found John Hubert Rodgers' army service records on Ancestry, and these nicely link that birth registration to your information on Amelia. He too has joined the Cameroonians.

Also now seen the 1871 census info - I had been thinking that the family would be abroad, but it does look as if John Rodgers waited until his 25 year commission was over before settling down to marriage in England.

Have you already tried FindMyPast army births and British overseas births to check for his birth approx 1822 in Bombay? If it is not there, there is a possibility that you might find a baptism via the India Office Library in LOndon (it does have a web presence). Logging off for now, will check back later.

Dear Ivy

I have already sent for one birth cert for John born 1820 Bombay, but my £10 was returned cos I did not have an exact date, only the year that was on the website. That does not mean that the entry on the website was not my John, only that they won't send me the certificate.

I have to say I am a bit lost with all these obscure records, I appreciate it is not your family, but if you can find a bit of time to talk me through it, I would really appeciate it. For example you say you have found John Hubert's army records on Ancestry - but I don't know how to look for them. I am not very innovative. A friend has found records of Reginald on the Royal Warwickshire website, but again I don't know how to find them.

If you could help.....

Margaret

Ivy

Sorry, but I haven't a clue what I am doing. I tried looking for John Hubert Rodgers, but I don't know what database to look in, clearly not WW1, but I can't find any other that is likely.

I am clearly missing something here as I just don't know what to do.

Where did you find John Hubert's service records? How does that tie in with Amelia? I am just lost.

Sorry to be such a pain.

Regards

Margaret

Ivy

Sorry, but I haven't a clue what I am doing. I tried looking for John Hubert Rodgers, but I don't know what database to look in, clearly not WW1, but I can't find any other that is likely.

I am clearly missing something here as I just don't know what to do.

Where did you find John Hubert's service records? How does that tie in with Amelia? I am just lost.

Sorry to be such a pain.

Regards

Margaret

Hi Margaret,

Not at all - when we can't do things with computers, it has to be step by step, and I've plenty of asking myself.

A lot of army personnel were redrafted for WWI, and so (for instance) if someone was missing from 1901 and could perhaps have been in the Boer War, they can often be found in the WWI pension/records. John Hubert was redrafted, and the details of his service includes his postings throughout his original service. He was redrafted in 1917 at the age of 44.

Have a look at his Ancestry WWI pension records - he is down as John Hubert Rodgers b abt 1873 Paddington Middlesex. It notes that there are 7 images, but keep clicking on, since images 4221 to 4233 all relate to this man.

- ahh - and mindful of MGNV's tip to check backwards from Ancestry's entry point to the records, in this case there are also an earlier 3 images 4218 to 4220 that relate to JHR.

With the overseas births, from a quick look, there do not appear to be any Bombay 1820 births registered for John Rodgers/Rogers. However, there is this one:

Births , GRO ARMY CHAPLAINS BIRTH INDICES (1796 to 1880) 1796 - 1880
Page 1 of 1 ROBINS-ROGERS

Surname Rodgers
Name John
Station Bombay
Year 1825
Page 139

This might be worth a try, since there is also Lavina with the same refs on the same page - I wonder if the chaplain was doing a catch up exercise for any children not yet baptised?

Catch you later

All the best