Genealogy Chat

Hi All

Can a person appear on both the 1891 English Census and the 1891 Welsh Census?

I have a Hannah Grub found on the 1891 England Census living in Walsall with her two grandsons - she is a possible fit for a missing Ann Grubb from my tree.

I can find all Census entries for Ann from 1841 to 1881 - but nothing for 1891. She dies in 1893.

Here are the reasons why I think it could be her;

1. The Name: Ann > Anna > Hannah its pretty close
2. DOB: both born in Buckinghamshire c1822
3. Location: In 1881 Ann was in Walsall
4. Location again: In 1888 Ann's husband dies in Walsall
5. Husband: Hannah is a Widow
6. Grandkids: Ann has 2 grandchildren William / George (brothers) the same age as those with Hannah
7. Red Herring: I can find no trace of a Hannah Grub b.1822 or on previous census

The only fly in the ointment is George and William - I have a definite match for them on the 1891 Welsh Census living with their widowed mother Mary Grubb (down as Mary Grabb).

I know the Census was supposed to be taken on 5th April - is it possible that George and William were on both Censuses?

TIA ... Paul

Paul

Yes, it is certainly possible that someone could appear twice.

People were supposed to be included as part of the household in which they spent the night prior to the census being taken, whether they would normally reside at that address or not. That's why you often find people listed as being guests or visitors.

In that case (if they were away from home), they should not have been included on the census return for their actual home address. Nevertheless, this did happen.

Do you know of any established connection with Wales?

Hi Miss Marple

Thanks for the reply. Mary Grubb (my GT x2 Grandmother) was nee Meats. In 1891 she was recently widowed and is living next door to her Parnets in Pontypridd with here children including William and George.

I am very confident that the Wlesh record is correct - I suppose I should be asking myself what else is wrong with the Walsall record.

Mary has had a habit of providing dodgy info in previous Census entries - mabe they wernt there on the night???

Paul

Hi Paul,

A real Dilemma, both seem very possible. Not sure if I can be of any help but if there's anything you need looking for in Walsall I live there

Linda

Thank you Linda that is very kind of you to offer.

I did pay a visit to the Walsall Record Office myself last year (I seem to remember that is located in an old school?? - with some very helpful staff)

What I leanrt then was that the street where I last recorded Ann (7 Court James Street) had been knocked down and replaced with Leckie Street???

The 1891 entry has her in 24 Little London, Walsall Foreign - google maps suggests it is quite close - is it ? Do you think 24 Little London still exists?

I have just ordered the death cert lets hope that helps clarify a few things.

Thanks again for your kind offer ... Paul

Paul

If you are confident that the Welsh record is correct and that William and George are living with their widowed mother, I would go with that.

You know it's the right Mary Grubb as you know her maiden name and that she's living next door to her parents. Therefore, you know you've got the right two boys.

If you want to establish whether your Ann Grubb and the Hannah Grubb from Walsall were one and the same, you could try to get hold of Hannah Grubb's marriage details. Did her husband and "your" Ann's husband have the same name? If so, you could order the certificate. That should tell you Hannah/Ann's father's name. Does that also match with what you know.

Were Mary Grubb and her parents Welsh or had they just relocated? If she was Welsh, where was her husband - William and George's father - from? Walsall? Bucks? Is it likely that these Welsh children (if they were Welsh) had a grandmother living in Walsall? You have to establish a connection.

You don't say how old William and George were in 1891. Did they appear on the 1881 census? Was their father still alive then? If so, his place of birth will be recorded. Does that fit in with what you know about Hannah Grubb and the Walsall/Bucks connection?

I think the answer lies in connecting the boys' father with Hannah Grubb. That might tell you if indeed she was really Ann grubb, their grandmother.

It might just be that Hannah Grubb of Walsall is an unconnected lady who had two grandsons of the same names and ages.

Then again, it might be a case of them staying with gran, but mum still recording them as being at home on census night.

Family history: don't you just love it? :-)

Amanda x

Hi Paul,

The Records office is in Essex St, very nice little place. Leckie Rd, is just round the corner from the office.

I doubt very much 24 Little London is still there, there is a tower block called Little London which is where I would assume it was. There are a lot of original houses still standing around it, my family lived round the corner in Sandwell St.

Hi Amanda

Thanks for the time spent trying to get my head straight on this one. Below are my answers to the very valid questions you raised.

"you could try to get hold of Hannah Grubb's marriage details. Did her husband and "your" Ann's husband have the same name? If so, you could order the certificate. That should tell you Hannah/Ann's father's name. Does that also match with what you know.
" - I cannot find any record of a Hannah Grub (with here profile) prior to 1891 - she also does not appear in 1901.

"Were Mary Grubb and her parents Welsh or had they just relocated? If she was Welsh, where was her husband - William and George's father - from? Walsall? Bucks? Is it likely that these Welsh children (if they were Welsh) had a grandmother living in Walsall? You have to establish a connection.
" - The family moved around each census - they were general labourers and seemed to follow the railways. They went from Bucks to Wales, to Shropshire, back to Wales, to Walsall then to Wales again. Mary's parents were from Hay on Wye.

"You don't say how old William and George were in 1891. Did they appear on the 1881 census? Was their father still alive then? If so, his place of birth will be recorded. Does that fit in with what you know about Hannah Grubb and the Walsall/Bucks connection?" - The kids are the same age with the same birth place. The dad was also from bucks, but I cannot find a death record for him.

I've ordered the Death Cert for a Ann Grubb who died in Walsall in 1893 - I'm hoping this will tie her back to the Walsall Foreign Hannah.

Thanks for you interest - its really helps "chatting it through" with someone.

Cheers...Paul :)

Hi Linda

Do you know what "Walsall Foriegn" is all about - seems a rather a strange name.

Cheers...Paul

Hi Paul,

Don't know if this will help

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/STS/Walsall/index.html


http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/unit_page.jsp?u_id=10296020


My lot are split between walsall and walsall foreign, I didn't even know it existed until I started doing my tree and I am Walsall born!

Hi again, Paul

If William and George's father hailed from Buckinghamshire, and their mother and her family had connections there AND to Walsall, it seems probable that your Ann and the Walsall Hannah were one and the same.

There could have been any number of reasons why each woman claimed the children were living with her, or it could be that they were on a visit with gran and mum didn't understand the census regulations.

It's always a good idea to order certs, and it would be wonderful if you find out that the informant is someone who ties in with your family, but it may be that if she died as a widow with no family around, the informant might turn out to be a neighbour or member of staff from a hospital.

Good luck!

Amanda x

Thanks Amanda / Linda

I think I'll wait for the Cert to arrive before claiming her

Chers...Paul

Let us know how you get on.

So there are two Williams.
The second one is born in the same place as Mary!
1881
William Grub William,
Mary abt 1877 Walsall, Staffordshire, England Son Rushall, Staffordshire

William Grub John,Bridgett abt 1876 Brinmere, Glamorgan, Wales Son Rushall, Staffordshire

Hi Jim

Actually there are 3 Williams (another born in Ebbw Vale) and they are all cousins.

Also Mary's place of birth changes each census!

My theory is that the William and George on the 1891 Census living with his mother (recorded as Mary Grabb) is the same as the ones recorded in Walsall Foreign staying with their Grandmother Hannah Grub.

Hope this make sense....Paul