Genealogy Chat

Hi,

I have the following family in 1861:
Kingsley, Staffs
Elizabeth Thorley, w, 54yrs, b Cheadle
George Thorley, son, 30yrs, b Dilhorne
Sampson Thorley, son, 18, b Dilhorne
James Thorley, son, 16, b Dilhorne

Next door is who I'm most interested in:

John Mills, 26, b Dilhorne
Elizabeth Mills, 25, b Dilhorne
George Mills, 3, b Kingsley
John Mills, 1, b Kingsley

In 1871, John Mills is living with Elizabeth Thorley. He is now a widower. He is stated as her son-in-law and George and John are her grandsons. There are also now more Mills children - Isabella, 10 and James, 7.

What has been troubling me is a) I can't find a marriage for John and Elizabeth and b) I can't find Elizabeth's death and c) struggling to find firm birth reg's for the children.

(BTW - IGI confirms the birth of Elizabeth Thorley, baptised 1835, daug of William and Elizabeth Thorley)

I made a breakthrough last night when looking at the 1881 entry for Elizabeth Thorley (John Mills' mother-in-law) along with her grandsons George and John are also Edith Mills, aged 14. Who was she????? I checked for her on the 1871, and there she is, with her mum's sister and hubby (Edith and George Carr)

Edith is listed as 'neice' - which is correct but what made me open my eyes was her name - Edith Mills Paylor????

I immediately searched for her birth as Paylor and realised straight away it should be Taylor.

I found her birth on the Staffs BMD site - Edith Mills Taylor born 1866. I then found James Mills Taylor 1864 and Isabella Mills Taylor 1861. I was trully puzzled.

The puzzle peices started to fit together however.
I found this marriage:
Elizabeth Thorley married John Taylor, 1856, Fulford, Staffs.
Then her death:
Elizabeth Taylor died 1868 aged 32yrs, Ipstones district (which covers Kingsley)

Going back to the elder sons, George and John - George appears to be registered as 'George Taylor' but I'm struggling with John still.
The two girls, Isabella and Edith both marry as 'Mills Taylor', although James (my stepfather's great grandad) marries as just a 'Mills'

Why would they use the name 'Mills' in the 1861 and 1871 census and Elizabeth have her death reg as a 'Taylor'? Why would John use the name Mills when he married as a 'Taylor'? In 1877, John Mills gets wed again, as a Mills (to Mary Bettany, nee Wood) and he dies, a John Mills in 1893.

Sorry if I'm not making any sense! I'd appreciate any thoughts, comments or ideas re this. Initially, I accused John of alsorts - a bigamist, criminal etc - thinking he'd changed his name to cover something up. (lol!)

I'm now thinking there could be 2 Johns and the first John died or ran off. Elizabeth and John the 2nd (lol!) met by 1861 and she was just using his name on census, they never got round to marrying for whatever reason.

Hope I'm making sense! Thanks for reading and all comments (but please be nice!) are welcome.

Helen x
(Staffs)

Sorry Helen ,have read this through 3 or 4 times and am struggling to make sense of it all.....if the girls Edith and Isabella were registered at birth as Mills Taylor...do you mean Mills was a middle name? which would explain why sometimes it is used and sometimes not, was Mills an ancestors maiden name?...thats usuually why they get used as middle names. As for not finding Johns birth reg...... pre 1875 it wasn`t compulsory so he may not have been registerd at all. Do you have John Mills/Taylor on the 1851 census,? It may shed some light...I will go and take a look.


Nicky

Me too, Nicky, I've read it through 3 or 4 times, trying to make sense of it. Not your fault, Helen, you've explained it very well, it's just a complicated case.
I'm going to leave it until tomorrow and if it hasn't been solved by then I'll have a go.
Margaret

Hi Helen

Having had a look at the 1841 Census, I think John Mills and John Taylor may be two different men of about the same age. It is quite possible that Elizabeth was not married to John Mills, or that any marriage was bigamous. Getting all the available certificates, so as to see if there are common addresses may help, but people frequently moved house so that is not infallible. In 1851, John Taylor (16) and Elizabeth Taylor (18) were lodgers with William and Elizabeth Thorley, though both noted as unmarried. I wonder whether you and Nicky think that this Elizabeth Taylor could have married John Mills, i.e. that she is not Elizabeth Thorley. Otherwise why would she be listed as lodger, not daughter? At 18 in 1851, she would have been unusually old for the 1835 baptism that you have for Elizabeth Thorley. Don't forget also that son-in-law could also mean stepson.

I know this doesn't solve the problem. Only painstaking research through certificates, and perhaps Church records as well, will confirm the details of these households.

Regards

Stan

There were too many John Mills in Staffs in 1851 for me to work out which one was yours as I`m not familiar with the area, so didn`t know the different birth areas. As for the births..... I can`t find any Mills Taylor births on either freebmd or Staffs BMD..... though may be searching wrong as I`m still not sure if its a double barrelled surname or a middle name. Do you have any of the certs to prove that the Mills and Taylor marriages/deaths /births are in fact all the same people? This is very strange.......


Nicky

Hi Nicky and Margaret,

I'm sorry. I haven't explained things that well at really. It's really hard!

The main point is, I now know that Elizabeth Thorley married a John Taylor in 1856 but find it strange that instead of being John and Elizabeth Taylor in 1861, they're Mills!

The children born between 1861-1866 were registered as 'Taylors' - rightly so if Elizabeth didn't divorce or John Taylor didn't die but they were given the middle name 'Mills' Was this because there was a second John and he was the father of the youngest three?

I got confused at first thinking John Mills senior had changed his name from Taylor to Mills but am more now swayed to the fact that two John's are involved.

Sorry, I don't know how to make sense with this at all.

Thanks for looking though!

Helen x

Hi Nicky,

Thanks for looking.
The births are on Staffs BMD (and probably Freebmd, haven't checked) Its not a double barrelled name - it appears 'Mills' was given as a middle name to the last 3 children.

I will be getting certs but I am definitely confident they are all the same people, I've spent hundreds of hours on this!!!! (and my back and neck know it!!)

Thanks again
Helen x

Hi Stan,

Sorry, I've only just seen your reply. Thanks for your comments, I'll definitely take them on board.
I haven't looked at the entries you've mentioned so will do that when I'm more awake tomorrow. I can't think straight right now.

Elizabeth Senior and William Thorley had Elizabeth Thorley in 1835. I have them all together on the 1841, 1851 and then she's next door in 1861. (deffo the same family being tracked)
She marries in 1856, a John Taylor and she dies in 1868, aged 32, registered as Elizabeth Taylor. Elizabeth has 5 children and the last 3 are registered with 'Mills' as a middle name and the family are using the surname 'Mills' on the 1861 and onwards.

I think Elizabeth had maybe the first 2 children with her husband (John Taylor) and then got with John Mills around 1860/1861. They can't have married as she died an 'Elizabeth Taylor'

I'll get ordering some certs I think, I'm pulling my hair out with it all and fustrated that I'm failing miserably at explaining this to everyone kind enough to read.

There's got to be two John's in this equation surely.

Cheers
Helen x

Stan,

The Elizabeth Thorley you found in 1851 is not the one I'm looking at. You'll find the same family I'm referring to on the 1861 and 1871. Elizabeth's spelt wrong I think, so just search the 1851 for Sampson Thorley - there's only 1 that comes up in Staffs. The family are living in Boundary, Dilhorne.

The family obviously moves from Boundary to Kingsley between 1851-1861.

Helen... Don`t apologise you explained it very well ....its just a very complex case.....Your 1st reply to Stan above seems to be very logical....married John taylor had 2 children took up with John mills....more children, they never married hence she died a Taylor..... I think you`ve just answered your own questions...... the certs may finally put this straight.

Good luck with it all.

Nicky

Thanks Nicky x

Just to confuse things even more (lol!)
John Mills married in 1877, a widower, Mary Bettany nee Wood. The entry on the Staffs BMD is underlined (as Mary is remarrying) but a different surname is also given for John - WILKS!!!!

So I'm assuming on the marriage cert, he names his father as 'Wilks'

Sooooo complicated!

Logging off now, I'm shattered!

H x

Might be worth ordering this cert. Its the only John Taylor death in Cheadle between 1855 and 1860.

Deaths Jun 1858 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taylor John Cheadle 6b 16[5_]

Wondered if this might be John Mills whos 1 on the 1861 Census......seeing as you were having trouble locating his birth., and by the way have now manged to find the Mills Taylor Children.

Births Dec 1859 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MILLS John William Cheadle 6b 236


Nicky

Helen it may also be possible that John Taylor/Mills was an illegitimate child born to a woman with the surname Taylor or Mills who then married a man called Mills or Taylor.

In my partner's family he has a Mary Ann Mason born 1838 - I was struggling to find her before her marriage but thankfully she was born in a little village with not a big population and I had her birth cert - registered as Mason. I finally found her as the daughter of George Dixon - George had been born as George Mason prior to his parents marriage and on the early censuses he is down as Dixon - registered all his children as Dixon apart from the youngest - Mary Ann - who was registered as Mason. This was all clarified by finding an old bible with an inscription in the front to Mrs Dixon Christmas 1877 from the Reverend of the little village.

I think it would be worth getting the marriage cert for Elizabeth Thornley to John Taylor and perhaps one of the Mills Taylor birth certs.

x

Hi Nicky,
Thanks for them. I did see that death on the Staffs BMD site, it gives his age as 44yrs. So I'll get the wedding cert first to see how old he was at marriage and then go from there.

If it is the right one, then I wonder why she never married John Mills? She definitely didn't as she died an Elizabeth Taylor. Unless someone registered her death wrong!

Hi MrsTibbetts,
Thanks for your ideas. I had already thought over what you suggested as I (as you have) have come across a similar situation before. In this case though, I'm pretty sure it is two John's that Elizabeth was connected to.

I have even looked at John Mills marriage in 1877 to Mary Bettany nee Wood in the past at Stafford Record Office....long story but Mary's first husband was the brother of my x3 great grandmother. (The Mill's family belong to my step-father) I don't have it noted that John Mills stated he was a widower, so even more proof that he and Elizabeth never married.

Anyway, I'm waffling again. I'll be ordering lots of certificates on this I'm sure! I've so far ordered the marriage cert of Elizabeth Thorley and John Taylor and also the birth cert of James Mills Taylor (1864) - who is my step-father's great grandfather.

Phew!

Thanks again

Helen x

My initial thought is the reverse of Mrs Tibbets: Could it be that John Mills Senior was John Mills Taylor but had a falling out with his father so dropped his surname and just kept the Mills...which may have been his mother's name? Although I must admit I think Mrs T's sounds more possible.

Hopefully the Taylor/Thorley certificate will help work that issue out.

Surely Elizabeth would have assumed John Mills' name if she had previously been married to Taylor or legitimised the children by calling them Taylor Mills instead? I was reading an old Family History mag today where it was looking at a will that talked of "Reputed" wife and children, and it turned out they were named as such because they were unmarried but she had assumed his surname.

All very strange. Certs are the only way to start untangling I think.