Genealogy Chat

My ancestor Thomas Roberts with a pretty common name who was discharged from the Army in 1856 and who wed in 1864 had matching signatures of both documents as I obtained the original marriage cert from the LMA. He had to sign his army records when he was discharged. The signatures are so alike and I know it is the same person.

But some picky person on Rootsweb reckons that the tiny stroke on the last T isnt quite so similar, suggesting two different people and that people were taught to write in a certain way that nearly everyones handwriting was similar, even two people with same names? Is this true as this is worrying me and making me doubt the right man again even with all other evidence to suggest it is?????

Hi Benjamin,

I think you could probably put your mind at rest if you compared various enumerators' handwriting of the surname Roberts on the 1861 census!

Thomas should have taught his father, also Thomas Roberts how to sign as when he wed his mum Ann Goodacre in 1807, (Thos Jnr was born in 1813) he signed his own name but a newborn baby could have signed it better.

I have just had a thought as Elva's suggestion make me think this:-

The reason why Thomas signature is so neat is probably because he was in the Army for 25 years and they must have taught him how to write like that when he joined?

Hi Benjamin

it is true that children in schools through the ages have been taught to write the same way ... so they were all taught copperplate in the mid 19th century.

It still happens today ..... makes sense when you think that a central government board sets the curriculum, and the teachers were all taught according to a similar syllabus when they were young.

I couldn't get over how different American writing was from English when we first came over here 40 years ago .... but they have their system(s) as wel!!

However, most adults do change the basic style of their writing as they age and mature. So if everything else fits, then I should accept him .............. you'll be about as right as most of us!



sylvia

Hi Sylvia

Yes, I agree that peoples handwriting changes. I have seen a signature signed by the same person twice on a piece of paper and quite often the two signatures arent completely identical, mainly at the end yet with my ancestor, the two signatures were written 8 years apart and are virtually identical. I think a signature is different from actual handwriting as it signifies personality.

Ben

Benjamin

true story

we went to Australia in the mid-1970s for an extended stay. We had a large number of traveller's cheques in a mix of currency (UK pounds, US dollars, South African rand) left over from the 2 month roudn the world trip we took to get down under, so we went to the bank to open an account with these cheques.

We had originally signed them in Canada when we first got them from the bank. I counter-signed my cheques in front of the teller in the Australian bank.

He took them all, checked every one, looked at my passport, then said "sign them again please. The signatures are all different"!!!

I had to stand there, and re-sign them all.


Ever since, I have been exceedingly cautious when counter-signing travellers cheques to make sure that it is as close as possible to the first signature. I have noticed however that my signature often does vary from day to day.



sylvia

Similar and same are two different concepts. Even with ancient manuscripts written by monks in the C14 a scholar can tell where the main writer stopped and a different person with similar style took over. With copperplate or any other form of handwriting the same is true.
Another way to determine whether your Thomas Roberts is the same one who left the army would be to trace back his address from the 1861 census.
Dave

Hi Dave

I know that I have the right Thomas Roberts now. It was just I was asking for second opinions and I know that my one was the same guy as the one in the army as they both had the same parents names, and fathers occupation and mothers maiden names.

When my Thomas died in 1889, he was 76 so born c1813, and that is when the Army one was born.

Ben