Genealogy Chat

Don't apologise Kathleen. I'm really grateful for all the help you've given.
I've found Elizabeth Mullanay on the 1901 census. She was originally Elizabeth Cooke from Hungerford Shropshire. She married John Mullanay in Tyldesley in 1885. (Lancs. BMD). So, I'm back onto a Shropshire connection. I'll definately follow up the Sarah Jones on the 1891 census.

Regards

Olivia

Sorry Olivia, I probably sounded as if I doubted the information you had and I didn't mean to. I just know how easy it is to be so sure of some facts (I've done it myself) only to find out some of them are completely wrong.

It was just that the ages, occupation, Tyldesley connection etc. seemed to fit on the 1891 census record I found.

Hope you get it sorted out and find your family.

Kath. x

Kathleen, I've just checked Edward Bowker on the 1891 census. There are 2 living in Tyldesley. One is older than John Jones but he's a coal miner, born 1839 in Atherton (next to Tyldesley), and the address given is not far from Bank Street where John was residing at the time of his marriage.

Olivia

Kathleen, I agree about not taking any record as 100% correct but on the 1901 census I have John Jones aged 12 born Saldon, (which is Wakefield) Yorkshire. He is a boarder with his father living in a house just across the street from where Sarah Jones died.

Is that just coincidence?

I can always follow up the family living in Tyldesley in 1891 to be absolutely sure I have the right family.

Olivia

In 1901, Samuel Jones is a visitor living with John and Eliza Stanley from Dawley Shropshire. He was later sent to an orphanage in Dawley where he was later 'rescued' by Enoch Stanley, John's brother. I have proof that this was my Samuel (Sunday school prizes...).

The mother of John Jones was called Ann but she was born in 1829 in Church Stretton, Shropshire.

Olivia

I wouldn't take army records as gospel. My grandfather's army records say he was born Co. Durham (where he lived most of his life) but he was in fact born in Southwark, London.

Kath. x

I have the war record for John Jones. On it, it says that he was born in Wakefield Yorkshire. He enlisted in Atherton Lancs. and died on 12/07/1915 in Gallipoli. This John Jones has the same regiment number as the John Jones who died aged 27 on 12 July 1915. Son of the late John Jones, husband of Sarah Jones (another Sarah) 140 Mealhouse Lane Atherton who is mentioned on the Helles War Memorial.

I sent for the birth cert. and on it his mother is given as Sarah Payne, the same parents as on the birth cert. of Samuel Jones born Jan 1900. Samuel also died young but his son also said that he was Welsh. In fact John and Sam's children all look Welsh (or what we imagine typical Welsh people look like).

Olivia

Sorry, Ignore this. the baby is a John not Samuel!

Could this be baby Samuel with his Jones grandmother in 1901? If so maybe there was another child, Thomas. He is transcribed as son but it is definitely grandson on the image. Also the John Hy - could that be your grandfather? Ann Jones was born in Durley, Shropshire as was Isabella Smith, her stepdaughter.
1901 England Census
about John Jones
Name: John Jones
Age: 8 months
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1900
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Hindley, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Hindley
Ecclesiastical parish: Hindley All Saints
Town: Hindley
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Wigan
Sub-registration district: Hindley
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 70
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Jones 53
Bertha Jones 13
Elizabeth A Jones 17
Jane Jones 24
John Jones 8 months
John Hy Jones 11
Robert Jones 19
Thomas Jones 2 - image says grandson
William Jones 19
Isabella Smith 28

Are you absolutely sure you have the correct birth certificate for your grandfather? There is a 7 month old John with the first family. Could the John born 1888 have died and they named another son John after him and this is your grandfather? Just thinking out loud really as there are so many things that sound right about this family.

Kath. x

There is an Edward Bowker living in Tyldesley with Shakerley in 1891, so can't be far from the couple on the first reply.

Kath. x

I've just been looking at the census for Sarah Jones in 1891. Her husband also comes from Wales and there's no John aged 3 born in Yorkshire. I think that she's the same Sarah as the Sarah Payne in Bury 1881 as the boarders living with them are all from Bury.

Olivia

Just those two, so maybe worth the gamble of ordering both certs.

Name: Sarah Ann Payne
Year of Registration: 1860
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Manchester (1837-1924)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 268 (click to see others on page)

I am looking at births in that name around 1859 - 1861, will copy them over as I find them.

Name: Sarah Ann Payne
Year of Registration: 1859
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 271 (click to see others on page)

Sorry Reg but my last message got sent before I'd read the other replies.

John Jones was a coal miner, born 1856 in Ironbridge, Shropshire. He was 29 on the marriage cert.
The witnesses were Edward Bowker and Elizabeth Mollanay.
The address at the time of marriage was 38 and 22 Bank Street Tyldesley.

I don't know. They had a son John (my grandfather) born in September 1888 in Yorkshire, so he should have been 2/3 on the census. Her husband John was born 1856 in Ironbridge, Shropshire. The only other child I know of was Samuel, born in Hindley, Lancashire in Jan. 1900.
I've always wondered why there's never been a mention of other children between 1888 and 1900. As to go 12 years without falling pregnant and then to get pregnant again in 1900, so soon after a birth seemed 'unusual'.

Wales is a real possibility as my mother always said that her father was from Wrexham, Wales. She never knew him as he was KIA in 1915. He wasn't from Wales as I have his birth cert. and war records to prove it. Could it have been his mother?

It's a sad tail really. When Sarah died, John remarried and his new wife didn't want the boys. John was left on his own and Samuel was sent to Shropshire to an orphanage. I began to think that perhaps Sarah was from Shropshire too.

Olivia

This is a possibility for the 1881 census:-

Name: Sarah Ann (Susannah) Payne
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Welshpool, Wales

Civil Parish: Bury
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 12 Rook St
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Felt Hat Trimmer

Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: North Bury
ED, institution, or vessel: 8a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Sarah Ann (Susannah) Payne 20
Hannah Wolshenholme 49
Susannah Wolshenholme 23

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 3864; Folio: 79; Page: 33; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341923.

Bury isn't too far from Tyldesley.

Kath. x

What was her husband's occupation? How old was he?

Who were the witnesses?

Reg

Could this be them in the 1891 census? If so it says Sarah was born Wales and they were living in Tyldesley:-

Name: Sarah Jones
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John
Gender: Female
Where born: Wales

Civil Parish: Tyldesley With Shakerley
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Tyldesley
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 22 Johnson Street (north)

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Leigh
Sub-registration district: Atherton
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age

Edith Jones 11
John Jones 35 - coal miner
John E Jones 0
Rebecca Jones 8
Sarah Jones 32
Susannah Jones 13
John Smith 37 - boarder
Leah Smith 6 - boarder
Margeret Smith 8 - boarder
Roseanna Smith 1 - boarder
Sarah J Smith 32 - boarder
Thomas Smith 10 - boarder

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 3091; Folio 131; Page 53; GSU roll: 6098201

Kath. x

I really need some advice on where to look now to find my gt grandmother, Sarah Jones née Payne.

I've asked for help on the Records board to help find Sarah and her husband John Jones on the 1891 census but nobody has had any luck up to now.

I have Sarah's marriage cert. She was married in 1885 in Tyldesley Lancs. Her father was George Payne, tile maker and she was 25 years old.
I also have her death cert. She died in Dec. 1900 of a Haemorrhage in Premature labour. She was 39 years old and was buried in a public grave.

I have no idea where she was born so really needed to find her on the 1891 census.

Is there anywhere else where I might find a trace of her or will she and her family remain a mystery?

Regards

Olivia