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Thanks everyone . he is definitely a caldwell, my filaw is the spit of the family . but strange , how mary spruce ended up residing with a bracegirdle, maybe she was a servant . many skeletons .kind regards Tracy

found on find my past website

The marriage info by Maddie on page 1 for Caldwell Spruce 1837 says original image says dad his was William Caldwell.

Where is this available to view.

Maryb

You said:

"now the mary spruce i found seems to have the same birth details as mary bracegirdle? "

which I took to mean that you thought they might be the same person.

i never said mary spruce was mary caldwell, argyl gran, thanks for looking, but william caldwell was his father out of wedlock it looks like she went on to marry someone else , But he is listed and was mentioned as being a nurseryman and . caldwell marys son went into ,mary bracedirdles fathers trade as a slater .

Births for Harriet and Frank posted on page one

Posting just as proof that that's the correct marriage above:

Caldwell Spruce
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Caldwell Spruce
Age: 65
Estimated birth year: abt 1816
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Harriett Spruce
Gender: Male
Where born: Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Knutsford Inferior
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address: Queen St
Marital status: Married
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Slater & Builder Employing 3 Men & 3 Labourers
Registration district: Altrincham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors:
Piece: 3510
Folio: 9
Page Number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
Caldwell Spruce 65
Harriett Spruce 64
Rebecca Spruce 39 - daughter
Harriett Spruce 30 - daughter
Frank Spruce 25 - son
Kathleen H. Spruce 6 - grand-daughter


SPRUCE, REBECCA mms JACKSON
GRO Reference: 1841 J Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 19 Page 12

SPRUCE, HARRIET mms JACKSON
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 19 Page 15

SPRUCE, FRANK mms JACKSON
GRO Reference: 1855 D Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 08A Page 168


The grand-daughter:

SPRUCE, CATHERINE HARRIET mms BOWKER
GRO Reference: 1875 M Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 08A Page 203

Her parents' marriage:

Marriages Mar 1870 (>99%)
Bowker Mary Runcorn 8a 238
Spruce Cadwallader Runcorn 8a 238

To sum up -
you can't assume that William Caldwell was Caldwell Spruce's father, because there's no father named on his baptism record.

He might be, but you'll never be able to prove it.

Mary Caldwell, nee Bracegirdle, is not Mary Spruce in 1871.

Caldwell's father might well be Samuel Spruce, whom Mary seems to have married in 1819. Or somebody completely different.

Do you have Caldwell's marriage cert, to see if he names a father?

Caldwell Leader Spruce
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Caldwell Leader Spruce
Registration Year: 1837
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Great Boughton
Inferred County: Chesire
[Cheshire]
Volume: 19
Page: 53
Records on Page:
Name
Harriett Jackson
Caldwell Leader Spruce

Mary Spruce with Elizabeth Bracegirdle in 1871 isn't the same Mary, Tracy.
(If you mean Mary Caldwell nee Bracegirdle).


I think this is Mary Caldwell nee Bracegirdle, in view of the daughter Louisa, aged 3 in 1851 and 13 in 1861 (both censuses posted earlier). Also in view of Mary's birthplace, same as earlier censuses:

Mary Caldwell
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Mary Caldwell
Age: 63
Estimated birth year: 1808
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Over Cheshire England
Civil Parish: Knutsford Inferior
Ecclesiastical parish: Knutsford Inferior
Town: Knutsford
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Registration district: Altrincham
Sub-registration district: Knutsford
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 172
Piece: 3687
Folio: 18
Page Number: 31
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Caldwell 63 - widow, schoolmistress
Louisa Caldwell 23 - daughter, teacher of English and music
Charles E Barber 4 - grandson
Agnes E Howard 9 - boarder
Margaret Davies 20 - servant


BARBER, CHARLES ERNEST mms CALDWELL
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 08A Page 181


Charles Ernest Barber
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Charles Ernest Barber
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: Thomas Barber
Mother: Anne Eliza Barber
Gender: Male
Where born: K...ford, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Bexton
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address: Farm
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Altrincham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors:
Piece: 3511
Folio: 20
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Barber 37
Anne Eliza Barber 36
Ellen Maxwell Barber 16
Charles Ernest Barber 14
Anne Barber 12
Hugh Barber 11
Marg. Evelyn Barber 10
John Herbert Barber 8
William Barber 7
Louisia Barber 6
Mary Caldwell Barber 5
Thomas Cecil Barber


Thomas Barber
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Thomas Barber
Registration Year: 1866
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Great Boughton
Inferred County: Chesire
Volume: 8a
Page: 459
Records on Page:
Name
Thomas Barber
Walter Bate
Anne E Caldwell

A tree on Ancestry says that the Mary Spruce who married Samuel Spruce was Caldwell's mother (before marriage).

IF this is mary she could have had caldwell before she married
Mary
Last name Spruce
Marriage year 1819
Marriage date 02 May 1819
Marriage place Knutsford
Parish St. John the Baptist
Spouse's first name(s) Samuel
Spouse's last name Spruce
City or town Knutsford
County Cheshire
Country England
Reference item 5 p 42

Name: Samuel Spruce
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 1786
Death Age: 50
Burial Date: 24 Jan 1836
Burial Place: Knutsford, Cheshire, England
FHL Film Number: 1656842

her death

MARY
Last name SPRUCE
Gender Female
Age 80
Birth year 1797
Death year -
Burial year 1877
Burial date 19 Dec 1877
Death place Knutsford

a maybe
Mary
Last name Spruce
Gender Female
Birth year 1798
Birth date 16 Nov 1798
Baptism year 1798
Baptism date 08 Dec 1798
Place Knutsford, St John the Baptist
County Cheshire
Country England
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's last name Spruce

1851
King Street, Nether Knutsford, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Mary Spruce Head Widow Female 50 1801 Pedlar Cheshire, England
Daniel Dignum Lodger Married Male 40 1811 Silk Weaver Ireland
Mary Dignum Lodger Married Female 40 1811 - Derby, Derbyshire, England
Mary Dignum Lodger - Female 4 1847 - Derby, Derbyshire, England
John Smith Lodger Widower Male 60 1791 Blacksmith Middlewich, Cheshire, England

1841
King Street, Knutsford, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Mary Spruce Female 42 1799 Cheshire, England
a widow

different to

mary b bapt 1807
Name: Mary Bracegirdle
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 20 May 1807
Baptism Place: Old Dissenting Chapel-Presbyterian,Nether Knutsford,Cheshire,England
Father: James Bracegirdle
Mother: Lydia
FHL Film Number: 0020049 (RG4 190)

Name: Mary Spruce
Age: 74
Estimated birth year: 1797
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Knutsford Cheshire England
Civil Parish: Knutsford Inferior
Ecclesiastical parish: Knutsford Inferior
Town: Knutsford
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Registration district: Altrincham
Sub-registration district: Knutsford
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 60
Piece: 3687
Folio: 8
Page Number: 11
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Spruce 74
Elizabeth Bracegirdle 85
?

Please can you say where you have found the details of Mary Spruce which you say are the same as those of Mary Bracegirdle?

For our reference - 1861 where Mary is with a Bracegirdle;

Mary Caldwell
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Mary Caldwell
Age: 53
Estimated birth year: 1808
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Over, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Nether Knutsford
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration district: Altrincham
Sub-registration district: Knutsford
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 159
Piece: 2593
Folio: 16
Page Number: 26
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Caldwell 53
Emma Caldwell 20
Anne E Caldwell 17
Louisa Caldwell 13
Herbert Caldwell 11
Eliza Bracegirdle 14 - niece
Harriet A Morris 12
Clara E Taylor 22
Mary Silver 28


I don't see what the problem is with that - Mary was a Bracegirdle before she married, so Eliza is obviously the child of one of her brothers.

I don't see her with a Bracegirdle in 1881, which is presumably the record you're talking about.

is this the census you refered to

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Princess Street, Nether Knutsford, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Mary Caldwell Head Unmarried Female 53 1808 Independent Landed... Over, Cheshire, England
Emma Caldwell Daughter Unmarried Female 20 1841 ... Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Anne E Caldwell Daughter Unmarried Female 17 1844 Scholar Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Louisa Caldwell Daughter Unmarried Female 13 1848 Scholar Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Herbert Caldwell Son Unmarried Male 11 1850 Scholar Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Eliza Bracegirdle Niece - Female 14 1847 Scholar Over, Cheshire, England
Harriet A Morris Boarder Unmarried Female 12 1849 Scholar Chelford, Cheshire, England
Clara E Taylor Governess Unmarried Female 22 1839 Teacher London, Middlesex, England
Mary Silver Servant Unmarried Female 28 1833 House Servant Ireland

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
CALDWELL, HERBERT BRACEGIRDLE
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 19 Page 16

eliza is the daughter of marys brother matthew

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Northwick Street, Knutsford, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Caldwell Spruce Male 25 1816 Cheshire, England
Harriot Spruce Female 25 1816 Cheshire, England
Harriot Spruce Female 2 1839 Cheshire, England
Rebecca Spruce Female 0 1841 Cheshire, England
Sarah Hoult Female 60 1781 Cheshire, England
Mary Stevenson Female 15 1826 Cheshire, England
Mary Kinsey Female 25 1816 Cheshire, England
Thomas Kinsey Male 1 1840 Cheshire, England

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Tatton Street, Knutsford Inferior, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Caldwell Spruce Head - Male 55 1816 - Cheshire, England
Harriet Spruce Wife - Female 54 1817 - Cheshire, England
Rebecca Spruce Daughter - Female 29 1842 - Cheshire, England
Harriet Spruce Daughter - Female 20 1851 - Cheshire, England
Frank Spruce Son - Male 15 1856 - Cheshire, England

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Queen Street, Knutsford Nether, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Caldwell Spruce Head Married Male 65 1816 Slater & Builder Employing 3 Men & 3 Labourers Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Harriett Spruce Wife Married Female 64 1817 - Tarvin, Cheshire, England
Rebecca Spruce Daughter Single Female 39 1842 Slater Daur & Dressmaker Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Harriett Spruce Daughter Single Female 30 1851 Slater Daur & Dressmaker Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Frank Spruce Son Single Male 25 1856 Clerk In Coal Trade Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Kathleen H Spruce Grand Daughter Single Female 6 1875 Scholar Plumbley, Cheshire, England


SPRUCE, HARRIET JACKSON
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 19 Page 15

SPRUCE, FRANK JACKSON
GRO Reference: 1855 D Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 08A Page 168

Caldwell Leaden
Last name Spruce
Marriage year 1837
Marriage date 18 Aug 1837
Marriage place Tarvin
Spouse's first name(s) Harriett
Spouse's last name Jackson
Bride's father's name John Jackson
City or town Tarvin
County Cheshire
Country England
Reference item 4 p 1

image shows father as william caldwell nurseryman

not looking for william maddie. fiqureing out how spruce became. and how mary spruce has same details as mary bracegirdle williams wife, and later lives with a bracegirdle. Caldwell became a slater and brace girdles were slaters ?

in the 1851 United Kingdom Census Sample
1851 United Kingdom Census Sample No Image

Name: William Caldwell
Address: Booth Mills
Enumeration District: Knutsford Spr
County: Cheshire
Birth Place: Lancashire, England, Kirbey
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Relationship: Head
Marriage Status: Married
Occupation: Nurseryman
Household: View other family members

Name: Mary Caldwell
Address: Booth Mills
Enumeration District: Knutsford Spr
County: Cheshire
Birth Place: Cheshire, England, Over
Age: 43
Gender: Female
Relationship: Wife
Marriage Status: Married
Occupation: Nurserymans Wife
Household: View other family members

As no father is named on the 1817 baptism, you have no way of knowing with any degree of certainty who he was