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Thanks for replies. I am aware that details on certificates are not always correct but it gives me a starting point before I expand my search. Pam

IF the truck maker on 1939 register is the right man, this is the only birth which matches that - if his parents were very quick off the mark in registering his birth:

Births Sep 1902 (>99%)
Lee James William Newport, M. 11a 240


and this may be that man's death:

James Lee
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: James Lee
Death Age: 85
Birth Date: 29 Sep 1902 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration Date: Dec 1987
Registration district: Lambeth
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 14
Page: 256



???

James Lee
in the 1911 Wales Census
Name: James Lee
Age in 1911: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1903
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Maindee, Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Newport
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street address: 12 Livingstone Place
Occupation: School
Registration district: Newport
Registration District Number: 587
Sub-registration district: Newport
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Household schedule number: 258
Piece: 31983
Household Members:
Name Age
James Lee 41
Phyllis Lee 6/12
Ellen Lee 39
Rose Lee 14
Dorothy Lee 12
James Lee 8
Minnie Lee 7
William Lee 5
Elsie Lee 3
Frances Lee 2

Don't want to depress you, Pamela, but info on certificates isn't always accurate.

On the 1926 death cert of my gr-uncle Joe, it states that his father Joseph (my gr-grandfather) was deceased.
I spent years searching for Joseph's death, then I found him on the 1939 Register when it was released , and discovered that he didn't die until 1943.

My gr-grandparents had separated when Joe was a child, and I understand that Joseph was never spoken about in the family, so Joe's brother-in-law, who was the informant re Joe's death cert, probably thought he was dead - and clearly the rest of the family didn't dispute it when they saw the cert..

In your James Lee's situation, there's always the possibility that, as James and Annie appear not to have married, and presumably separated when the son was very young, the son may have thought his father was deceased when he wasn't.

However - if he was indeed deceased by 1948 -
he was probably still alive in 1939, per the 1939 Register entry posted earlier by safc.


Assuming he was roughly the same age as Annie, and assuming he remained in the general London-ish area, there's this possibility:

Deaths Sep 1943 (>99%)
Lee James W 55 Uxbridge 3a 51

But of course he may have moved away from the area. Perhaps he didn't belong to the London area in the first place.
Even supposing that death is his, there were lots of births of children named James William Lee in 1887-89.

But you never know - he may have stayed in touch with Annie and his son, and maybe the son's the informant at his death.


EDIT:
But the 1939 register says he was born 1902 (if that's him), so doesn't match that death.

Thanks again. I need to try and find the death for James William Lee that will at least give me his age so that I can check out some births to match. I know from his sons birth certificate in May 1926 his occupation was Motor Body Builder and according to the marriage certificate of his son he was deceased before March 27th 1948 . i will look at deaths between those years and see what that reveals. Pam

Malyon -

This is the spouse of the James who married in 1910:

Marriages Mar 1910 (>99%)
COCHRANE Lily St. Olave 1d 311

The page number had been mistranscribed re James's entry - should be 311, not 3111.

You wondered whether to get the cert with the other surname though in case it gave more info
I was trying to save you money by saying it's not two different registrations its one reg giving the surmane of both parents as they werent married


:-)

I know its the same certificated but is registered under Lee and Holgate Thanks Pam

Marriages Mar 1910 (>99%)
Lee James William St Olave 1d 3111

James William Lee
England and Wales Census, 1891
Name: James William Lee
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1891
County: London
Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical Parish: ST MARKS
Registration District: Camberwell
Residence Note: Burchell Road
Gender: Male
Age: 3
Relationship to Head of Household: Son
Birth Year (Estimated): 1888
Birthplace: London, England
Page Number: 27
Registration Number: RG12
Piece/Folio: 475/ 50
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
William Lee Head Male 44 London, England
Louisa Lee Wife Female 33 London, England
Annie Lee Daughter Female 14 London, England
James William Lee Son Male 3 London, England

Pamela it's not registered twice it's the same birth cert

As the parents weren't married but the father is named then technically the child could use either surname

In fact a child surname isn't listed it is presumed if the parents are married the surname would be the fathers surname as mum is mrs

When a child is illigiimate then both surnames are on the cert and the child could use either surname

Correction to above page and vol number 1d 1312 June 1926 Camberewell London

Apologies for late reply but have just finished a 12 hour night shift at work. Just for the record Stephen AW Cuzner and Florence Maud Holgate are my Grandparents And my G Grandparents are Henry Holgate and Annie Selina Knott. I have since come across a second Birth entry for the child born on 7th May 1926. They both have the same Vol Page numbers 1d 1313 June 1926 but the other one is registered under Holgate with MMN also Holgate. The one I have is under Lee I wonder if it is worth getting the other one in caae it gives a different address for Annie Selina Holkgate. Not sure why it was registered twice? The Stuart place address and Palestine grove Merton Mitcham. relates to my Holgate families. Thanks for all your hard work Kind Regards Pam

Mother's death:

Deaths Sep 1908 (>99%)
Holgate Annie Selina [35]0 Croydon 2a 190

Possible death of Annie's brother Frederick:

Frederick Holgate
in the UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919
Name: Frederick Holgate
Birth Place: Canning Town, Essex
Residence: Wimbledon
Death Date: 6 May 1916
Death Place: France and Flanders
Enlistment Place: Wimbledon, Surrey
Rank: Private
Regiment: Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment
Battalion: 7th Battalion
Regimental Number: G/1655
Type of Casualty: Died
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre


Not long married:

Frederick Holgate
in the Surrey, England, Church of England Marriages, 1754-1937
Name: Frederick Holgate
Gender: Male
Age: 21
Birth Year: abt 1892
Marriage Date: 25 Dec 1913
Marriage Place: South Wimbledon, All Saints, Surrey, England
Parish as it Appears: Wimbledon
Father: Henry Holgate
Spouse: Elizabeth Ellen Warren
Reference Number: 2050/1/13

Henry Holgate
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Henry Holgate
Gender: Male
Age: 36
Relationship: Head
Birth Year: 1855
Spouse: Annis S Holgate
Child: Henry Holgate
Emma L Holgate
Joseph Holgate
Ada M Holgate
Birth Place: Debden, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Lambeth
Residence Place: Lambeth, London, England
Sub registration district: Brixton
ED, Institution or Vessel: 1
Neighbors:
Piece: 407
Folio: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Holgate 36 - Cordwainer
Annis S Holgate 37
Henry Holgate 10
Emma L Holgate 9
Joseph Holgate 8
Ada M Holgate 9/12



Henry Holgate
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Henry Holgate
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Annie L. Holgate
Gender: Male
Where born: Debden, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Bermondsey
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 29 Frederick St
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Boot Maker
Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub registration district: St James Bermondsey
ED, institution, or vessel: 5a
Neighbors:
Piece: 565
Folio: 32
Page Number: 28
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Holgate 24
Annie L. Holgate 23
Henry Holgate


Henry Holgate
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Henry Holgate
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Holgate
Mother's name: Emma Holgate
Gender: Male
Where born: Debden, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Great Saling
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Registration district: Braintree
Sub-registration district: Finchingfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 25
Piece: 1700
Folio: 139
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
John Holgate 39
Emma Holgate 38
Henry Holgate 14

Henry Holgate
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Henry Holgate
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: A S Annie Holgate
Birth Place: Bardfold, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Tooting Graveney
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints Tooting Graveney
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub-registration district: Streatham
ED, institution, or vessel: 05
Neighbors:
Piece: 469
Folio: 124
Page Number: 40
Household schedule number: 251
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Holgate 40 - Shoemaker / Bootmaker
A S Annie Holgate 41
E Emma Holgate 19
Gray Holgate 19
George Holgate 13
Annie Holgate 10
Florence Holgate 8
Ada Holgate 5
Fred Holgate 7


Marriages Jun 1878 (>99%)
HOLGATE Henry Malling 2a 797
KNOTT Annie Selina Malling 2a 797

Ancestry seems to think she has a Lee connection, because it suggests this:

Annie Lee
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Annie Lee
Year: 1927
County or Borough: Lambeth
Ward or Division/Constituency: Lambeth
Street address: 1 Form [11 Camellia Street ]

But this Annie is living with an Albert Lee, so presumably not the right one.

Also this suggestion on Ancestry - but living with an Annie E Lee:

Annie Lee
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Annie Lee
Year: 1948
County or Borough: Lambeth
Ward or Division/Constituency: Lambeth

Good find, Choccy!

Annie Holgate
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Annie Holgate
Age in 1911: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Canning Town, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Mitcham
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address: 7 Willow View, Palestine Grove, Merton Abbey S W
Marital Status: Single
Registration district: Croydon
Registration District Number: 39
Sub-registration district: Mitcham
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Household schedule number: 139
Piece: 3445
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Holgate 52
Florence Holgate 19
Frederick Holgate 17
Annie Holgate 15
Zillah Holgate 11


HOLGATE, ZILLAH mms KNOTE
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 721


Annie Holgate
in the London, England, School Admissions and Discharges, 1840-1911
Name: Annie Holgate
Gender: Female
Age: 5
Birth Date: 18 Dec 1896
Admission Date: 7 Apr 1902
School: Fircroft Road School
Father: Henry Holgate
Notes: Fircroft Road School (0864) opened in 1896. Became Fircroft Primary School in 1951

Marriages Jun 1914

Cuzner Stephen A W Holgate Croydon 2a 659

Holgate Florence M Cuzner Croydon 2a 659




living with Stephen and Florence Cuzner


Surrey, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1962


Name: Annie Holgate

Gender: F (Female)

Year: 1935

Parliamentary Division/Constituency: Mitcham

Residence Place: Mitcham, Surrey, England

Place of Abode: 11 Stuart Place



Stephen Arthur Cuzner, Florence Cuzner, Maude Holgate and Joseph Holgate living together at 9 Drayton Villas, Palestine Grove, Mitcham from 1921 to 1930

1939 Register


Murcutt (Lee) Household (2 People)

11 Stuart Place , Mitcham M.B., Surrey, England


Annie S Murcutt (Lee) 18 Dec 1898 Female Domestic Single 183 1

Sorry, this record is officially closed.


Ref: RG101/1369H/018/27 Letter Code: CNAV



Marriages Mar 1951

HOLGATE Annie S MURCUTT Lambeth 5c 3221
MURCUTT Reginald HOLGATE Lambeth 5c 3221



England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007

Name: Annie Selina Murcutt

Death Age: 93

Birth Date: 18 Dec 1896

Registration Date: May 1990

Registration district: Camberwell

Inferred County: Greater London

Volume: 11

Page: 1293