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that didn't throw us off too far, Nigel - it was also possible that he himself was confused so the stated birthdate is never entirely reliable anyhow.

(Thanks for your PM!)

Alfred wasn't with aunt and uncle Yallop in 1911:

20 Bungay Road, Norwich Rd, Brooke, Norwich
George Henry Yallop 40
Caroline Yallop 39
Harry Yallop 14
Reggie Yallop 12

so he must have gone to live with them a little later - or he was just visiting the grandparents on census night, not uncommonly. The two households were in the same census district.

Hi All again, I had mad a mistake with Alfreds DOB, it was December 20th 1904 and he dies around 1984, Grandad (Alfred) was bought up by his Aunty and Uncle George Yallop and Caroline Cooper for most of his young life but My Father and his sister have no recollection of Clara. I think you are correct with the assumption that James is in fact Alfred in the 1911 census but dad has never heard him referred to as James.

Sorry if I have wasted your time with wrong DOB.

Thanks for all your help!

Nigel :-)

yes I think that's what we're thinking, Mundham on the birth cert = Mund

Clara's baptism posted in Rose's first reply in thread.

Mundham Street not existing, I don't think...(nothing on London Electoral, or in general on Newspaper search, or google, which usually helps with streets, roads etc.)

Perhaps mean't Mund for Cert.!. Arthur T. and Edith B. Searle at 14 Mund Street, 1939)

Chris :)

edits

Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Brooke
Church name St Peter
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 457
Baptism date 1 Aug 1886
Birth date 1 Apr 1886
Person forename Clara
Person sex F
Father forename James
Father surname COOPER
Father occupation Labourer
Mother forename Sarah


(Grandson, from 1891)

Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Heckingham
Church name House of Industry (Union Workhouse)
Register type Other Register
Register entry number 827
Baptism date 04 Nov 1888
Person forename Alfred William
Person abode Brooke
Father occupation Servant
Mother forename Eliza
Mother surname COOPER

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

(from above)

I wonder whether maybe Clara gave that as her own address and not the address where he was born.

the 1911 census for Clara's parents does show grandson James (I am assuming Alfred James) born in Kensington, London.

that census shows 235 people whose address is 'Mundham, Brooke, Norwich' including some addresses like Abbey Farm and Mill House, but apparently no street with that particular name at the time.

in 1911, 22 Mund St Fulham has

Leth Willie Lenton 25 (Seth, of course), riveter
Ellen Edith Emma Lenton 21
Edith Elizabeth Lenton 1

all born locally

they are newlyweds, 2 years married, so would not have been there in 1904

Arthur Searle and family are at 14 Mund St in 1911 ... did they move or did the numbering change?

I wonder if that Mundham Rd, Fulham as address on birth cert is a mistake?, ie that it is not in Fulham at all, as Google brings up a Mundham Rd in Mundham ( Norfolk) very close to Brooke , Loddon where Clara was born? Seems a bit too much of a coincidence?

Hi All
Thanks for all your replies, and sorry for my delay in replying! I will work through them this evening as at work today, I am very pleasantly surprised at the number of replies, thank you!!

The Mundham street address comes from my grandfathers birth certificate.

Welcome to the Community boards Nigel.



(I'll let Nigel know how to find his replies) :-)

22 Mund Street on the 1901 is houshold of an Arthur Searle Fishmonger.

Can't see a Mundham Street...a Mund Street, Fulham coming up...(looking around at things Electoral, Newspapers, Census etc.)

Chris :)

Marriages Dec 1917
Burslem Clarissa E Durston Conway 11b 765
Durston Albert V Burslem Conway 11b 765

they seemed like candidates to account for Clare and Allen Durston in 1939, but they are accounted for in Shrewsbury in 1939



no luck with passenger records outbound up to 1960 either for Clare/Allen Durston ...

there is nothing much to account for this couple in the 1939 register

164 Freehold Road , Ipswich C.B., Suffolk, England
Clare Burston *01 Apr 1886* Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Allen Durston 26 Mar 1887 Male Coal Merchant Married

(her surname clearly says Durston on the image)

there are no births for an Al* Durston in the first two quarters of 1887

and there is no apparent marriage and there are no deaths for either name

another one who 'might' be a person but can't be traced to find out ... !!


you do know the two other people who have Clara Cooper 1886 Brooke in their trees?

since Alfred James was reared with his grandparents and aunts and uncles ... would there be any living members of his children's generation who might remember anything of an Aunt Clara? ... that is, are you in touch with descendants of any of her siblings?

actually is that your Alfred James Cooper's birth?
i.e. born in Sep but registered the following quarter in Oct?

it's just that there are these death registrations


Alfred James Cooper 20 Dec 1904 died Dec 1984 Norwich Norfolk
Alfred James Cooper 20 Dec 1904 died Dec 1984 Norwich Norfolk
Alfred James Cooper 20 Dec 1904 died Apr 1985 Norwich Norfolk

that seem strangely similar ... images not available to check whether the first two are just duplicate entries at Ancestry for some reason

and I don't see a death to match the birthdate 13 September 1904, but he could have died before 1969 when accurate birth info began to be recorded in the index

this is the Alfred who died in 1984 (or 1985?) in the 1939 register

3 Council Houses , Loddon R.D., Norfolk, England
Alfred J Cooper 20 Dec 1904 Male Bricklayer Married 51
Cissie Cooper 24 Nov 1911 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 51
+ 2 closed records

.......... yes, you have that Cissie in your tree

so your Alfred James Cooper was born 20 Dec 1904, not 13 Sep 1904 ... or he was like many people in that era and wasn't sure of his correct birthdate

Alfred James is with Clara's parents in 1911


Name: James Cooper
Age in 1911: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1905
Relation to Head: Grandson
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Kensington, London, England
Civil Parish: Brooke and Howe
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street address: High Green, Brooke Nr Norwich
Registration district: Loddon

James Cooper 61
Sarah Cooper 59
John Cooper 26
George Cooper 19
Ethel Cooper 22
Margaret Cooper 14
James Cooper 6


odd that Clara was 'sent away' to have the baby, but he ended up back with her parents

Nigel if you could confirm he was known as James?

Clara's parents already had a grandson Alfred in the 1891 census, could be why


for ref

Births Dec 1904
COOPER Alfred James Fulham 1a 292

Peter J Cooper 1930, in the 1939 register, would be at the outside for being a child of Clara Cooper 1886

possibly he was a grandchild?

there were two Peter J Cooper births registered in the first quarter of 1931, in Worcester and Lewes reg districts

checking the matching marriages, neither had a mother named Clara ...

there is no obvious death to match the 1939 Clara Cooper

possibly Peter's death (birth date 2 days out)

Name: Peter John Cooper
Birth Date: 19 Nov 1930
Date of Registration: Oct 1986
Age at Death: 55
Registration district: Hounslow
Inferred County: London
Volume: 13
Page: 1238


bad enough when you can't find a trace of your person, but when you can't find a trace of a person who might be your person ... !

Any sign of her son Alfred in 1911?

Andy

wondering, this Clara Cooper is listed as married , but the birth date matches?

1939 REGISTER TRANSCRIPTION
Hellawell Household (4 People)
Ashwell,Scotts Grove Road , Bagshot R.D., Surrey, England

Clara Cooper 01 Apr 1886 Domestic Worker Unemployed
One closed record
Peter J Cooper 21 Nov 1930 At School

(sends apology to Nigel)

Chris :)

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
High Green, Brooke, Loddon, Norfolk, England

James Cooper Head Married Male 41 1850 Agricultural Labourer Woodton, Norfolk, England
Sarah Cooper Wife Married Female 40 1851 - Woodton, Norfolk, England T
Annie E Cooper Daughter Single Female 21 1870 Domestic Servant Woodton, Norfolk, England Transcription
Elijah Cooper Son Single Male 17 1874 Agricultural Labourer Brooke, Norfolk, England
James Cooper Son Single Male 16 1875 Agricultural Labourer Brooke, Norfolk, England
William Cooper Son - Male 15 1876 Agricultural Labourer Brooke, Norfolk, England
Emma Cooper Daughter - Female 10 1881 Scholar Brooke, Norfolk, England
John Cooper Son - Male 6 1885 Scholar Brooke, Norfolk, England
Clara Cooper Daughter - Female 5 1886 Scholar Brooke, Norfolk, England
Ethel Cooper Daughter - Female 2 1889 - Brooke, Norfolk, England
May Cooper Daughter - Female 0 1891 - Brooke, Norfolk, England
Alfred W Cooper Grandson - Male 2 1889 - Heckingham, Norfolk, England

Just for ref

Norfolk baptisms Transcription
Print transcription View image
First name(s) Clara
Last name Cooper
Sex Female
Birth year 1886
Birth date 01 Apr 1886
Baptism year 1886
Baptism date 01 Aug 1886
Father's first name(s) James
Mother's first name(s) Sarah
Parish Brooke
Diocese Norwich
County Norfolk
Country England
Archive Norfolk Record Office
Archive reference PD 599/6
Page 58
Record set Norfolk baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain