Find Ancestors

Thank you Malcolm for your hard work.

A search at http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/ gets AG's 1901 hit, viz:
Form A: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001203139/
Form N: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001203134/
[which shows Poor Law Union (equivalently, rego district) as Dungannon]
Form B has some details on LM Richardson's shop:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001203135/

I don't see her in 1911, so she probaly is married.

=======================

From Eringobragh1916's post:
He was formerly employed as a clerk by Mr. George Carr, grocer, Skipton, and previously in a similar capacity by the Skipton Board of Guardians.

From Mary's post [thanks for clearing this up, Mary:
Kathleen Rogers in 1911 is a servant/Laundress worker in Skipton Union Workhouse.

So it looks likely that they worked together for a while.

==========================

It might be possible to guess Bridget's dead kids from cemetery records, so check out:
http://www.cravendc.gov.uk/article/266/Funeral-records

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4561978

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-prince-of-waless-own-west-yorkshire-regiment/
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/31st-division/

You should find his medal card at Ancestry.
You might also find his service record, although 70% of these were destroyed in a fire.
CWGC's service # can help in locating these.


Following on Erin's post, I can offer some suppositions.

However, even if you get Joseph's service record, I don't expect it to say much more abt his death than

1/5/17 SOS [Struck off strength] West Yorks
1/5/17 TOS [Taken on strength] 42nd CCS

[Very rarely, there might be an intervening couplet like
1/5/17 TOS 999th Field Ambulance
1/5/17 SOS 999th Field Ambulance]

A battalion has 4 companies of abt 200 men each (although the establishment would be higher).
When holding the front line, 1 or 2 would be standing down or in reserve.
Each company tells some men off to be stretcher bearers - these can be supplemented by men from the reserve company(s.
These stretcher bearers were responsible for bring casualties to the bn's RAP (regimental aid post) where they'ld receive first aid.
Usually, they were then evacuated by a field ambulance company to a CCS (casualty clearing station) - in Joseph's case the 42nd CCS 25km away.
I don't know if CCS's specialized by 5/17 - they certainly did later in the year, so one CCS might specialize in GSWs (Gun Shot Wounds), another in head injuries, another in gassings, etc.
From the CCS, a soldier might be returned to his unit, but more likely to a hospital near the channel ports, whence he might be further transferred back to England.
Most long-term sites of CCSs also had a nearby cemetery (another example is Nine Elms British Cemetery - located west of Poperinge near Ypres)





The 16th battalion's war diaries say what the unit was doing day by day.
Usually only officers get mentioned by name, rarely do O.R's (other ranks).

These are usually available at Ancestry, but not in this case.


So go to http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ and do an advanced search.
I know wo95 is WW1 war diaries, so I do an Advanced Search for West Yorkshire Regiment within reference wo95.
There are 39 hits, but only 2 concern the 16th bn. I can click on them here (or for convenience, do a basic search for wo95/2362/1 or wo95/4590)

wo95/4590 covered:their brief time in Egypt mentioned in the opening 2 URLs of this post:
93 Infantry Brigade: 16 Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment
Date: 1915 Dec. - 1916 Feb.
but this didn't sound very interesting, as well as ocurring before Joseph enlisted.

***************

A lookup of wo95/2362/1 gets us:

16 Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment
Reference: WO 95/2362/1
Description:
16 Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment
Date: 1916 Mar. - 1918 Feb.

Context of this record
Browse by Reference
All departments
WO - Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Records of the Armed Forces from commands, headquarters, regiments and corps
WO 95 - War Office: First World War and Army of Occupation War Diaries
PART I: FRANCE, BELGIUM AND GERMANY
31 DIVISION
WO 95/2362 - 93 Infantry Brigade (Described at item level)
WO 95/2362/1 - 16 Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment

Ordering and viewing options
£3.45
Download size approximately 64.5 MB [294 images]
Add to basket
More ways to view this record
Image viewer
This record is available to view with our image viewer. Hide images
Please note, images are low-resolution and have been intentionally distorted. To download a high-resolution, complete record, please add to your basket.


***************

Joseph was wounded in the lead up to the Third Battle of the Scarpe.


The site has changed, so this is via the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130527042557/http://www.1914-1918.net/bat18.htm
Third Battle of the Scarpe, 3 - 4 May 1917

First Army (Horne)
XIII Corps (Congreve)
2nd Division
5th Division
31st Division. *************************
Canadian Corps (Byng)
1st Canadian Division, which captured Fresnoy
2nd Canadian Division
3rd Canadian Division.

Third Army (Allenby)
VI Corps (Haldane)
3rd Division
12th (Eastern) Division
56th (1st London) Division.
VII Corps (Snow)
14th (Light) Division
18th (Eastern) Division
21st Division.
XVII Corps (Fergusson)
4th Division
9th (Scottish) Division.

For reference:
Author: Nicholson, G.W.L
Official History of the Canadian Army in the First World War: Candian Expeditionary Force, 1914-1919
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/docs/CEF_e.pdf

Although Nicholson is really concerned with the CEF, he does include a sketch map (#39) near the end of Chap 8 which shows 13 Corps on the Canadian right.
Although it's just a sketch map, it shows 13 Corps between the vilages of Oppy & Gavrelle.

[I do have a standalone copy of this sketch which I've pm'ed to Margt]


********************

http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/ndx5to40.htm

http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A69397/-/collection

Just in case you need to know abt trench map locations, lets take the road junction in Gavrelle as an example
The ref system is Sheet.Letter.Number.quarter.easting.northing
So here its Sheet51b.C.25.a.2.6
Letter defines a 6 x 6 block of 1000yd squares which are Number'ed - Letter & Number are printed on the map.
Each square is quartered and labelled as:
a b
c d
easting & northing are usually given in 50yd steps. On this larger scale map, the square bondary lines have hash marks every 50 yds.
A 50 x 50 yd square is OK for most purposes, but not all - e.g., for an arillery target, two digits would be used for both the easting & the northing to define a 5 x 5 yd block.

Oppy is 2000 yds to N.

[NB this is a later map, so the trenches may not be in their 5/17 location.
Also, the blue (British) trenches are not shown (as a security measure).]


Here's an earlier, smaller scale map, which shows Arras in the SW corner:
http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A70448/-/collection

Thank you everyone for your magnificent effort and another thank-you to Argyll Gran who alerted me to another influx of replies. I did think we had exhausted all info and am delighted with the above. It is going to take me a while to note and digest all this but I am really grateful to you all.

Maybe their deceased children ??

Births Mar 1889 (>99%)
Rodgers Mary Jane Skipton 9a 46

Deaths Mar 1889 (>99%)
Rodgers Mary Jane 0 Skipton 9a 37


Births Jun 1897 (>99%)
Rodgers May Skipton 9a 49

Deaths Jun 1897 (>99%)
Rodgers May 0 Skipton 9a 34


Births Dec 1899 (>99%)
Rodgers Agnes Skipton 9a 50

Deaths Dec 1899 (>99%)
Rodgers Agnes 0 Skipton 9a 40

This looks like a better marriage than the Hagney one, as far as Roseanne's birth is concerned:

Petrum McCrory
in the Ireland, Catholic Parish Registers, 1655-1915
Name: Petrum McCrory
Gender: Male
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 22 Feb 1876
Marriage Place: Desertcreight, Derry and Tyrone, Ireland
Diocese: Armagh
Spouse: Brigidam O'Neil


Witnesses: Thomas McCloskey and Francesca [?] O'Neil

And that would make them 35 years married by 1911.

Ancestry suggests this for Roseanne in 1901:


Roseann Mc Crory
in the Web: Ireland, Census, 1901
Name: Roseann Mc Crory
Gender: Female
Age: 23
Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation to Head: Servant
Residence Date: 31 Mar 1901
Townland/Street: Church Street (South side)
District: Dungannon
County: Tyrone
Household Members:
Name Age
Leander Murray Richardson 46
Minnie Richardson 37
Fred Richardson 15
Leander Richardson 11
Isabella Richardson 8
Minnie Richardson 5
Gertrude Richardson 1
Roseann Mc Crory 23

This will be Roseanne's birth:

Roseann Mccrory
in the Ireland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911
Name: Roseann Mccrory
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 27 Jan 1877
Birth Place: Tyrone, Ireland
Father: Peter Mccrory
Mother: Bridget O'Neill
FHL Film Number: 255969

EDIT:
No, this won't be them - see later post at 12:13.


In view of details posted by mgnv, and Margaret's suggestion of a change of surname:

Perhaps a possible marriage ???

Bridget O'Neill
in the Ireland, Catholic Parish Registers, 1655-1915
Name: Bridget O'Neill
Gender: Female
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 22 Sep 1878
Marriage Place: Badoney Lower and Greencastle, Tyrone, Ireland
Diocese: Derry
Spouse: Peter Hagney [Haigney in image]

Witnesses: John McGeown [? McKeown] and Daniel McLeer.


That's 2 years later than the 35 years of marriage in 1911 suggests, but maybe their arithmetic wasn't accurate.

Kathleen Rogers in 1911 is a servant/Laundress worker in Skipton Union Workhouse.

Maryb.

Margaret Don't know if you have details relating to Joseph (RIP) but following on from mgnv's post above I have found this....

Article Date: 11 May 1917

SKIPTON SOLDIER DIES OF WOUNDS

Mr. and Mrs. Peter Rogers, of 53, Westmorland Street, Skipton, have received information that their only son, Pte. Joseph Rogers, of the West Yorkshire Regiment, died of wounds in the 42nd Casualty Clearing Station, France, on May 2nd. In a letter to Pte. Rogers parents the Matron at the hospital, states:- "Your dear son has been admitted here mortally wounded in the legs. He was terribly bad, and all we could do was to give him ease and make him as comfortable as possible. He was so splendidly brave through it all, but he passed away at 8 o'clock this morning (May 2nd). I am so very sorry for you in this great trouble. He will be buried today in a soldier's grave."

Pte. Rogers, who was 21 rears of age, enlisted in June of last year, and had been out in France about eight months. He was formerly employed as a clerk by Mr. George Carr, grocer, Skipton, and previously in a similar capacity by the Skipton Board of Guardians.

This site also has a picture of Joseph...

http://version3.cpgw.org.uk/viewDetail.cfm?sID=242-02

If you search for Westmorland St.Skipton you can see the house where the family lived.

Margaret - your opening post says a couple of things that need expanding on:
"according to birth certificate" - so have you seen her b.cert?
I don't believe on her b.cert "she is recorded as Kathleen RoDgers" (unless it's a baptismal name entered later in column 10).
Is your info obtained from a baptismal cert?

- your opening post says "This family came across from Ireland" which implies they were already a family, and my inference would then be they wed in Ireland.
Is it your family lore that they came ove together?

=====================================================

I've no sub that lets me see census images - I mostly use:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND
This uses the FMP/GR transcriptions - it's fine except for 1911

Whenever there's a local BMD index available - see:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
it's always worth using this to supplement the GRO index

1881 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXJ-CNDN
Event Place Ashton Under Lyne, Lancashire, England
Registration District Ashton Under Lyne
Residence Note Chapel St
Registration Number RG11 Piece/Folio 4042/30 Page Number 5
Peter Rogers Head M 28 Stalybridge, Lancashire, England
Bridget Rogers Wife F 25 Stalybridge, Lancashire, England
Thos Mc Cafferty Lodger M 49 Milford, Hampshire, England

A lookup of rg11/4042 at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ shows
Registration Sub-District 3B Audenshaw

Ancestry's 1881 gives different (more believable) p.o.b's
Peter Rogers abt 1853 Tyrone, Ireland Head
Bridget Rogers abt 1856 Tyrone, Ireland Wife
Thos. Mc Cafferty abt 1832 Donegal, Ireland Lodger


I believe this is one of their non-surviving kids:
Births Sep 1881 (>99%)
Rogers John Ashton 8d 469

Deaths Sep 1881 (>99%)
ROGERS John 0 Ashton 8d 279


Using http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1881
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
ROGERS John Audenshaw Tameside O'NEALL AUD/45/24

Cheshire Death indexes for the years: 1881
Surname Forename(s) Age or Year of Birth Sub-District Registers At Reference
ROGERS John 0 Audenshaw Tameside AUD/27/85

I think this is your Kathleen:
Births Sep 1885 (>99%)
Rodgers Kate Burnley 8e 285

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1885
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
RODGERS Kate Colne Preston ONEILL COL/88/54

and finally Joseph
Births Sep 1895 (>99%)
Rodgers Joseph Skipton 9a 43

I think Gins's 1891 is correct - although Isabella coming from Belfast is a puzzzle, and where's Peter?
Note that CWGC says Joseph was s/o Peter and I.B. Rogers

1891 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7D9C-W2M
Parish Skipton
Ecclesiastical Parish HOLY TRINITY
Registration District Skipton
Residence Note Water Street
Registration Number RG12 Piece/Folio 3503/ 78 Page Number 27
Isabella Rogers Head F 33 Belfast Ireland
Catharine Rogers Daughter F 6 [Colne] Lancashire, England


1901 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X952-TXM
[Piece/Folio 4032 / 6] Page Number 4
Peter Rodgers Head M 49 Ireland [STONE MASON]
Bridget Rodgers Wife F 44 Ireland
Catherine Rodgers Daughter F 15 Colne, Lancashire [LAUNDRESS]
Joseph Rodgers Son M 5 Skipton, Yorkshire


1911 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWNF-YSX
rg14/25802
Skipton, Yorkshire-West Riding
Peter Rogers 59 Tyrone Head
Bridget Rogers 54 Tyrone Wife [Marr 35y]
Harry Driver 19/12 Skipton Visitor
Joseph Rogers 16 Skipton Son


1911 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWNN-7BS
rg14/25808
Registration District Skipton
Sub-District Skipton
Record Type Institution
Kathleen Rogers 25 Colne, Lancashire, England Servant [Laundress]
[Ancestry has pob as Cohne, so only "Lancashire, England" is useful for searching there]

[It's not clear what sort of institution Kath is at, but it rather looks like she's staff there, not an inmate - one would need to see the image to be sure]


http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/996328/ROGERS,%20JOSEPH
ROGERS, JOSEPH
Rank: Private
Service No: 28740
Date of Death: 02/05/1917
Age: 21
Regiment/Service: West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own) 16th Bn.
Grave Reference: II. F. 5.
Cemetery: AUBIGNY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION
Additional Information: Son of Peter and I. B. Rogers, of 53, Westmorland St., Skipton, Yorks.

Cemetery Details
Aubigny-en-Artois is a village approximately 15 Kms north-west of Arras on the road (N39) to St. Pol.
Historical Information
Before March, 1916, Aubigny was in the area of the French Tenth Army, and 327 French soldiers were buried in the Extension to the West of what is now Plot IV. From March 1916 to the Armistice, Aubigny was held by Commonwealth troops and burials were made in the Extension until September 1918. The 42nd Casualty Clearing Station buried in it during the whole period, the 30th in 1916 and 1917, the 24th and 1st Canadian in 1917 (during the capture of Vimy Ridge by the Canadian Corps) and the 57th in 1918.
The Extension now contains 2,771 Commonwealth burials of the First World War and seven from the Second World War. There are also 227 French burials made prior to March 1916, and 64 German war graves.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-prince-of-waless-own-west-yorkshire-regiment/

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/31st-division/

You should find his medal card at Ancestry.
You might also find his service record, although 70% of these were destroyed in a fire.
CWGC's service # can help in locating these.

It is a possibility Gins although her mother was Bridget. Thanks anyway

I can't find a birth for Catherine Rodgers in Lancashire. I wonder if this is her?




1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Water Street, Skipton, Yorkshire, England

Isabella Rogers Head Married Female 33 1858 - Antrim, Ireland

Catharine Rogers Daughter Single Female 6 1885 Scholar Colne, Lancashire,

Maybe you are right Shirley - I hadn't considered that I must admit. I imagine that the 3 children living mentioned on the 1911 census would included Roseanne, Catherine/Kathleen and Joseph. Joseph was killed 4 years later in WW1. Neverless I am perplexed as to why I cannot locate a marriage for Kathleen. Apparently she went into nursing so I imagine that would have been during the war. Thank you for trying.

not picking them up .maybe they had gone to Ireland at the time of the census

not seeing them at the moment

the 1911 census though does say married 35 ,years 7 children born only 3 still living

Have you considered that the family may still have been in Ireland in 1891?

will take a look

bump.... anyone ?