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The certified copy of an entry of birth for John NORMAN on 14th September 1842 at Sydenham Common, Lewisham, Kent is frustratingly inconclusive due to the poor quality of the handwriting as to Elizabeth's maiden name which definately starts with a B followed by 3 or 4 other letters. It would be easy to assume it is BURR per the 1820 marriage above.

Thank you for your continue support.

I have today ordered the birth certificate of John NORMAN born 1842 in Sydenham, Lewisham, Kent. Fingers crossed.

I will share the results.

One of those Birth Certs. posted earlier needed. Wondering about Burr...


1841
Montpelier Street, St Margaret, Westminster, Middlesex,
John Rice (Butcher) 50 1791


West Middlesex Marriage Index Transcription (Find My Past)
First name(s) JOHN
Last name RICE
Marriage year 1822
Marriage day 23
Marriage month Jan
Place KENSINGTON
Groom's first name(s) John
Groom's last name RICE
Bride's first name(s) Mary
Bride's last name BURR
County Middlesex


Westminster Marriages Transcription (Find My Past)
First name(s) JOHN
Last name NORMAN
Marriage year 1820
Marriage day 01
Marriage month Oct
Parish St Anne, Soho
Spouse's first name(s) ELIZABETH
Spouse's last name BURR
Groom's parish St Anne Westminster
Bride's parish St Anne Westminster
County Middlesex

(above should also be on Ancestry, London Marriages, and Pallots)

Chris :)

(Marriages suggested by Malyon below)

County Essex
Place Elmstead
Church name St Anne and St Lawrence
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 32
Marriage date 20 Feb 1817
Groom forename John
Groom surname NORMAN
Groom condition single
Groom parish Of this parish
Bride forename Elizabeth
Bride surname GANT
Bride condition single
Bride parish Of this parish
Witness1 forename Samuel
Witness1 surname NICHOLS
Witness2 forename Lucy
Witness2 surname NORMAN
Notes Banns. Witness 1 signed others marked.


County Cambridgeshire
Place Caldecote
Church name St Michael and All Angels
Register type Transcript
Marriage date 23 Dec 1824
Groom forename John
Groom surname NEWMAN
Groom condition bachelor
Groom parish Bourne
Bride forename Elizabeth
Bride surname RADFORD
Bride condition spinster


http://www.freereg.org.uk/

(from above free link)

could this be elizabeths marrige to john norman

John Norman
mentioned in the record of John Norman and Elizabeth Gant
Name John Norman
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Gant
Event Date 1817
Event Place Elmstead, Essex, England

Name Elizabeth Norman
Event Type Census
Event Date 1881
Event Place Lewisham, London,Kent, England
Registration District Lewisham
Residence Note Bradford Road
Gender Female
Age 81
Marital Status (Original) Widow
Occupation Formerly Laundress
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Birth Year (Estimated) 1800
Birthplace Harlow, Essex, England
Page Number 18
Registration Number RG11
Piece/Folio 737/9
Affiliate Record Type Household
HOUSEHOLD

ROLE

GENDER

AGE

BIRTHPLACE

Elizabeth Norman Head F 81 Harlow, Essex, England
George Norman Grand Son M 12 Sydenham, Kent, England

Malyon - what is your source for the 1851 Census which features my Elizabeth (jnr) NORMAN, niece, born 1833 living with the RICE family?

I aplogise to all for having made this thead confusing since it refers to 2 generations of Elizabeth NORMAN - mother (born 1800) and daughter (born 1833) which I now refer to as (snr) and (jnr).

I have now sighted the 1851 Census on Ancestry which is illegible to my eye and can well imagine why the surname has been transcribed differently. Mary ROSE is said to be from Harland, Essex but it suits me to use Malyon's source which says Harlow, Essex because its where Elizabeth (snr) was born. This would make Mary the aunt of Elizabeth (jnr) and perhaps the sister of Elizabeth (snr)?

Looking to purchase a birth certificate for John NORMAN born 1842 in Lewisham which included Sydenham, Kent.

Isabella Norman
England Births and Christenings
Name Isabella Norman
Gender Female
Christening Date 30 Oct 1825
Christening Place BECKENHAM, KENT, ENGLAND
Father's Name John Norman
Mother's Name Elizabeth

As Mary RICE, wife, is from Harlow Essex per the 1851 Census she will be the relation to my Elizabeth NORMAN and not Mr Rice.

Back to the drawing board for Elizabeth's maiden name!

this is the 1841 census looks like they could be in the workhouse

Name Elizabeth Norman
Event Type Census
Event Date 1841
Event Place Lewisham, Kent, England
Residence Note Well'S Lane
Gender Female
Age 8
Age (Original) 8
Occupation Null
Birth Year (Estimated) 1833
Birthplace Kent
Registration District Lewisham
Book Number 12
Parish Lewisham
County Kent
Page Number 24
Registration Number HO107
Piece/Folio 484/16
Affiliate Record Type Institution

HOUSEHOLD

ROLE

GENDER

AGE

BIRTHPLACE

John Norman M NULL
Elisebeth Norman F NULL
Susanah Norman F NULL
Charles Norman M NULL Kent
William Norman M NULL Kent
William Norman M NULL Kent
Elizabeth Norman F NULL Kent
Rebecka Norman F NULL Kent
Eliza Norman F NULL Kent
Heny Norman M NULL Kent
Isabella Norman F NULL Kent

this looks like the census for 1851 but name is rice not rose but the age for elizabeth is 1833

George Rice
England and Wales Census, 1851
Name George Rice
Event Type Census
Event Date 1851
Event Place Kensington, Middlesex, England
Registration District Kensington
Residence Note Lower Grove
Gender Male
Age 16
Occupation Butcher
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Birth Year (Estimated) 1835
Birthplace Brompton, Middlesex
Page Number 46
Registration Number HO107
Piece/Folio 1469 / 208
Affiliate Record Type Household
HOUSEHOLD

ROLE

GENDER

AGE

BIRTHPLACE

John Rice Head M 57 Brompton, Middlesex
Mary Rice Wife F 55 Harlow, Essex
Mary Rice Daughter F 19 Brompton, Middlesex
George Rice Son M 16 Brompton, Middlesex
Thomas Rice Son M 15 Brompton, Middlesex
Elizabeth Norman Niece F 18 Sydenham, Kent

I'm confident that I've found my maternal great greatgrandmother Elizabeth NORMAN, born 1833 in Sydenham, Kent in the 1851 Census. She is recorded as being niece to the ROSE family and living in Brompton, Middlesex.

Not sighted the actual Census on Ancestry but presumably she would have been recorded as niece to the male head of the houshold who was always a ROSE and a relation to her mother i.e. the elusive maiden name?

Birth certificates only issued from 1837. Best you can hope for for births prior to then would be a baptismal record.

Safc has posted possible births for Eliza and John. Using those references you could order one of the certificates from the GRO to find the mother's maiden surname

Believe the youngest child was Susanah born in 1821 per the 1841 census.

Is it necessary to obtain the first born's birth certificate to be sure of the mother's maiden name? I would prefer to have the certificate of my next generation maternal ancestor who was Elizabeth born in 1833.

could thi be the marriage

Name John Newman
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Radford
Event Date 1824
Event Place Caldecote Or Caldecot, Cambridge, England

Thank you to everyone who has replied.

All Elizabeth's children were born in Sydenham, Lewisham, Kent which is now South East London.

I may just have to purchase a birth certificate.

The couple could have married anywhere and as there are lots of possible marriages around about 1820, to be absolutely sure which is the correct one, I'm afraid you may have to buy a copy of one of the birth certificates to be sure of getting the correct one.

Do you know when and where the youngest of their children was born?


Have you followed all the children through the census records?
Sometimes you find them living with, or having relatives stay with them, which could give a clue to their mother's maiden name.

Name: Jonathan Norman
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Day
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 16 Nov 1828
Event Place: Cambridge, England
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I07693-1
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1040430
Reference ID:



Citing this Record:
"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N63R-Y5S : accessed 21 February 2016), Jonathan Norman and Elizabeth Day, 16 Nov 1828; citing Cambridge, England, reference ; FHL microfilm 1,040,430.

????

Name: John Norman
Titles and Terms (Original):
Event Date: 14 Jan 1926
Event Place: Road Dist 4, Scott, Illinois
Gender: Male
Marital Status:
Race:
Age: 82
Birth Year (Estimated): 1844
Birth Date: 14 May 1843
Birthplace: England
Father's Name: John Norman
Father's Titles and Terms:
Father's Birthplace: England
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Day
Mother's Titles and Terms:
Mother's Birthplace: England
Occupation: Retired Farmer
Residence Place:
Address:
Spouse's Name:
Spouse's Titles and Terms (Original):
Spouse's Birthplace:
Burial Date: 16 Jan 1926
Burial Place: Winchester
Cemetery:
Informant's Name:
Additional Relatives:
Digital Folder Number: 4008164
Image Number: 2378
GS Film number: 1613169
Reference ID: 3090



Citing this Record:
"Illinois Deaths and Stillbirths, 1916-1947," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NQH3-2D8 : accessed 21 February 2016), John Norman, 14 Jan 1926; Public Board of Health, Archives, Springfield; FHL microfilm 1,613,169.

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Wells Road, Lewisham, Kent, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Norman Head Married Male 58 1793 Stable Man Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
Elizabeth Norman Wife Married Female 51 1800 Laundress Harlow, Essex, England
Transcription
Isabella Norman Daughter Unmarried Female 25 1826 - Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
Eliza Norman Daughter Unmarried Female 13 1838 Scholar Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
Henry Norman Son - Male 10 1841 Scholar Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
John Norman Son - Male 8 1843 Scholar Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
George Norman Son - Male 6 1845 Scholar Sydenham, Kent, England

????

Births Mar 1838 (>99%)
NORMAN Eliza Lewisham 5 270

Births Dec 1842 (>99%)
NORMAN John Lewisham 5 291