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I'm looking for relatives of Charles and Emma, with the main hope of finding proof of Charles' father.
Charles and Emma Elizabeth were married in 1873 and lived their lives in the east end of London. They had one son George amongst many girls one of which my husband is descended from. Their marriage certificate named a William as the father of Charles and he was a tailor by trade.
I have found 2 separate family units, each with the right credentials, but cannot link father and son with any document to be happy with either of them. Charles isn't consistent on his own later census forms as to his place of birth.
Regards Pat

1851 ?
William Gammes
[Charles Gardiner]
Age: 11 Mo
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Relation: Son
Father's name: William Gammes
Mother's name: Elizabeth Gammes
Gender: Male
Where born: Greenwich
Civil Parish: Greenwich
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street address: ??Chandfield ??



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Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Greenwich West
ED, institution, or vessel: 08
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 178
Piece: 1586
Folio: 201
Page Number: 35
Household Members:
Name Age
William Gammes 39 - Tailor b.Portsmouth, Hants
Elizabeth Gammes 25 all from here down b. Greenwich, Kent
William Gammes 7
James Gammes 5
Sarah Gammes 3
William Gammes 11 Mo


Dea x

This would seem to be the birth reg for the above :

Births Jun 1850
Gardiner Charles Greenwich 5 256

Dea x

(if below relates to above)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

Chris :)

County Kent
Place Deptford
Church name St Nicholas
Register type Unspecified
Register entry number 75
Marriage date 20 Nov 1843
Groom forename William
Groom surname GARDINER
Groom age full age
Groom condition bachelor
Groom abode Deptford
Groom parish Saint Nicholas
Groom occupation Tailor
Bride forename Elizabeth
Bride surname HURBURGH
Bride age minor
Bride condition spinster
Bride abode Deptford
Bride parish Saint Nicholas
Groom father forename Robert
Groom father surname GARDINER
Groom father occupation Ropemaker
Bride father forename Joseph
Bride father surname HURBURGH
Bride father occupation Royal Marine
Witness1 forename Joseph
Witness1 surname HURBURGH
Witness2 forename John
Witness2 surname SYMS

Unfortunately, I have also followed a Charles, son of the above couple, who seems to have married a Ruth Earith in 1871:

Name: Ruth Earith
Registration Year: 1871
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Newmarket
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Cambridgeshire
Volume: 3b
Page: 893
Records on Page:
Name
Charles Gardiner ****
Sarah Cooke
Ruth Earith *****
Elijah Simpkin

On 1881 census they have named a 5 year old son HURBURG Gardiner which would appear to confirm the connection?

So, If the William Gardiner to Elizabeth Hurburgh couple is the correct one for Charles b. Greenwich on 1851 census then he does not appear to be the one who married Emma Elizabeth Babbs ?? even though the father William fits as being a Tailor.

Dea x

Looks like it is probably this one?


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
9, Vine Road, West Ham, Essex, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Charles Gardiner Head Married Male 32 1849 Warehouseman St George in the East, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Emma E Gardiner Wife Married Female 31 1850 - Hoxton, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Emma E Gardiner Daughter Single Female 7 1874 - St Luke's, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Ada M Gardiner Daughter Single Female 5 1876 - Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Transcription
George C Gardiner Son Single Male 3 1878 - Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Louisa B Gardiner Daughter Single Female 1 1880 - St Luke's, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Census details


Births Sep 1849 (>99%)
Gardiner Charles St George Southk. 4 442


???

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Foxes Lane, Saint Paul Shadwell, Stepney, Middlesex, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Gardiner Head Married Male 50 1801 Tailor Shadwell, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Elizabeth Gardiner Wife Married Female 34 1817 Tailoress St George's, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Mary A Gardiner Daughter - Female 14 1837 - Shadwell, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Emily Gardiner Daughter - Female 12 1839 - St George's, Middlesex, England
Transcription
James Gardiner Son - Male 10 1841 Scholar St George's, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Charles Gardiner Son - Male 5 1846 - Shadwell, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Louisa Gardiner Daughter - Female 2 1849 - Shadwell, Middlesex, England

Dea x

Welcome to the Community Boards Pat.


I'll let Pat know how to find her replies :-)

(if the 1851 above)

Chris :)

London, Docklands and East End Baptisms, 1558-1933 Transcription (Find My Past) (also Ancestry, where Birth date looks more like 1846)

First name(s) CHARLES
Last name GARDENER
Birth year 1844
Birth date 06/06/1844
Baptism year 1848
Baptism date 24 Apr 1848
Father's first name(s) William
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Father's occupation Tailor
Address 46 Shakespear's Walk
Parish St Paul, Shadwell
Church address The Highway
County London
Archive reference X097/288



Births Jun 1876 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
GARDINER Edward Herburgh Newmarket 3b 587


Deaths Jun 1881 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Gardiner Edward Hurburgh 5 Poplar 1c 454

(for one on 1881, mentioned by Dea above)


Emma Elizabeth Babbs is shared by another Genes Member (see 'Search all Member Trees', top right of page here, under 'Search')

As a first timer I thank all of you and hope this reaches you en mass. Our Charles has no link to the Hurburgh family or Greenwich. Their Charles married Ruth Earith and our one is the one from Vine Road West Ham.
It's linking him to the William from his and Emma's marriage certificate that is the problem. Post marriage census, each show his birth year as1849/50 but his place of birth shows a different place - St George in the East and Oxfordshire, puzzling. I'm researching the Shadwell family and have established the mother was Elizabeth Coventry but haven't yet been able to get a birth certificate for Charles of that family, the age is out for my person.
Another Charles born 1849 has a mother Maria Gates, father William a tailor but Charles was born in Newington. Still working on this family. My problem is still finding firm proof that my Charles came from either family. (Maria was 2nd wife).
Thank you all. Regards, Pat

Looking again at London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 on Ancestry, on previous page, to Charles Birth date 6th June 1846, also Mary Ann, Emily and James.

Looks to fit with 1851 posted by Dea above. Birth date July 26 1837 given for Mary Ann.

Chris :)

(perhaps Charles Birth not registered, also worth taking variants of spellings, Gardiner into account!)

Hello again. Thank you Dea for the information. I sent for the birth certificate for the Charles born in Southwark 1849 (Ref 4 442) back in 2013. He was not my person as his father was also Charles and not a tailor.
I did find the baptisms of the Shadwell family children including one for Charles which was on it's own page 321, giving his birth date as 6.6.1846. I have the 1841,51 and 61 census for the family and found marriage documents for 2 of the children hoping Charles or Emma may have witnessed them, but no such luck, (I think I have their authentic signatures). I'm still tracking these children. I know Louisa died young.
The other possible family is with a William, born Abingdon Berkshire and Maria (Gates) who were married in 1842. Their son Charles has the right birth year of 1849 but born in Newington Surrey, as were his siblings. I do have the certificate for this. Maria was Williams 2nd wife, his 1st being Hannah Haydey with whom William had the older children. Am I going into this too far for this site? I don't know how much I'm supposed to ask. I was only looking for relatives of Charles who may know something to help me.
Really appreciate anything though.
Regards, Pat

You can ask for as much help as you like on here Pat - we love a good challenge !!!

Have to pick grandchildren up soon but will get back to it this evening................

It certainly is a hard one to unravel and there are many trees on Ancestry who have probably all copied from each other and have mixed the two families (Ancestry trees are notoriously unreliable :-( ).

We just need to find something to prove the link for Charles to the correct family.

See you later,

Dea x

Was you aware of the Genes Member sharing Emma Elizabeth Babbs?...

'Search All Member Trees' (top right of page here under 'Search')

Chris :)

Hello,

To Dea,
At last someone who understands the need for proof and not just taking other peoples trees as being correct. Thank you, Pat

To Chris Ho,
I did find the listing for Emma Babbs a while back and contacted the lady attached to it, she is of the Shadwell family.
I don't know her direct connection but she does have Emma married to Charles on the family group sheet she kindly sent me. I looked into the marriage of one of the children to see if there was a lead but nothing came of it.
There was nothing against Charles' name just that he married Emma Babbs and their marriage date.
If I go with this and accept that whoever did this research is right, then I have found my family. But....I want proof. I found mistakes in spelling on this group sheet and dates that were typed wrong, so am suspicious about it. Like Chines whispers.
Although I had quite a file on this family, I sent off for birth certificates for 2 of the children to prove to myself that the mother was in fact named Elizabeth Coventry. I had found a marriage for a William and an Elizabeth Coventry (m1834) and needed to make sure I had the right heads of family. They are them.
I am now waiting for 2 more certificates to come back, both for a Charles with various dates.
Maybe neither of these 2 family's I'm looking into are his.
Thank you again and I hope I'm doing this right by attaching this to one email.
Regards, Pat

Yes, a mystery...
See what other Birth Certs. give, and post away!, lol.

Tree copiers, we see most days, those with actual proof and evidence, a different thing!, easy to do when 'hints' etc. being thrown at them, as you say best to keep an open mind on Shadwell family, frustrating though, when you can't 'move' further with yours!.

Chris :)

Well, I have spent days on this - I have looked at historical directories, Old newspapers, School records, Army records,BMD's and census etc...... and I still haven't found anything to prove this connection............................. Sorry !!

Still on the case though !!!

Dea Xxx

Thank you so much Dea.
I still work on these 2 family's but go off track with many other names that appear on documents connected, then get involved with their lives.

If you have census docs for the family with Maria as the mother, the older children were from first wife Hannah Heyday, I found that marriage certificate, then sent for a birth one for daughter Jane b1839, that to her confirm connection to Hannah and also one for the Charles, to connect him to Maria (Gates). They were all one family.

Although I have a baptism doc for Charles of the William and Elizabeth family, I never found matching details on the BMD. I'm hoping one of the random certificates that I sent for recently comes up trumps.
There were many Charles Gardiner/Gardner/Gardeners born in the 1845-1850 range and I have checked out most of them in depth. These 2 family's are who I was left with.
How can you say sorry, after all of your input? I can just go away................... Pat

Hello all,

Here's an update on my plight if still interested, if not I understand.

I have now received the birth certificates for 2 more of the many Charles Gardner's/Gardiners on the BMD, registered around the time I'm looking into. They both have the spelling Gardner and not Gardiner.

Vol 02 page 465 Registration district Stepney, sub district Mile End Old Town, Middlesex.
Born June 1847, father James, a Labourer, mother Caroline Durrant.

Vol 02 page 202 Registration district, City of London, sub district South West, City of London.
Born September 1849, father Thomas, a Box Maker, mother Eliza Saxton.

Obviously if the details of my Charles father given on his and Emma's marriage certificate were correct, then neither of these can be him.

I may send off for more, I really don't know. It's costly but less time consuming than ploughing through online documents. At least I get straight to the names and addresses of those involved.
Thank you for reading this. Regards, Pat

Until the mid 1870's, birth registration wasn't compulsary. Might your 'Charles' parents have decided against it or just didn't bother?

Have you back-tracked from the marriage witnesses to see if they were related to Charles? You may be able to find them together in an earlier census.

Illigitimate children would often 'make up' a father to save face. its also possibe his mother remarried (married for the first time) after his birth father died or abandoned them and he took his mother's second partners name.
One of mine was raised by a step-father. Her MC names her father with the correct surname but her step-father's first name.