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I have been looking for information about my great grandfather. He was born 1857 in Rye, East Sussex to an unmarried mother Caroline. I know he married Harriet Bates from Peasmarsh, Sussex. However after 1881 he disappears from all records. In 1911 my great grandmother is listed as widowed. Does anyone have any information that would help please.

for info

Name: John Hennary Langley Allen
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1857
Age: 21
Father's name: Thomas Allan
Spouse's Name: Harriett Mercer Bates
Spouse's Age: 21
Spouse's Father's Name: Joseph Bates
Marriage Date: 10 Feb 1878
Marriage Place: Rye, Sussex, England

1881
Name: John Allen
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Harriet Allen
Gender: Male
Where born: Rye, Sussex, England
Civil Parish: Rye
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street address: 4 Waterloo Place
Marital Status: Married
Education:

Employment status:

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Occupation: Blacksmith
Registration district: Rye
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1017
Folio: 68
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
John Allen 25
Harriet Allen 24
Caroline M. Allen 1
Edward Phillips 19
Charles Panell 20

1891
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Name: Caroline Allen
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Harriett Allen
Gender: Female
Where born: Rye, Sussex, England
Civil Parish: Rye
Ecclesiastical parish: Rye
Town: Rye
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

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Registration district: Rye
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 756
Folio: 57
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
Harriett Allen 35 ------- a lauderess and married
Caroline Allen 11
John Allen 9
Thomas Allen 9
Ethel Allen 4
Thomas Almond 40

1911
Name: Harriett Mercer Allen
Age in 1911: 54
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Rye Foreign, Sussex
Civil Parish: Rye
Search Photos: Search for 'Rye' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street address: 7 Wellington Terrace Rye Sussex
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Laundress
Registration district: Rye
Registration District Number: 68
Sub-registration district: Rye
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 126
Piece: 4694
Household Members:
Name Age
Harriett Mercer Allen 54
Henry Allen 15

1901
Name: Harriett Allen
Age: 44
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Rye, Sussex, England
Civil Parish: Rye
Search Photos: Search for 'Rye' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: Rye St Marys
Town: Rye
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Rye
Sub-registration district: Rye
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 859
Folio: 53
Page Number: 18
Household schedule number: 127
Household Members:
Name Age
Harriett Allen 44 ---- launderess, married
Ethel Allen 14
Henry Allen 5

Deaths Mar 1941 (>99%)
Allen Harriett M 83 Battle 2b 15

this is a long shot

JOHN H
Last name ALLEN
Gender Male
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1855
Age 70
Death quarter 3
Death year 1925
District BATTLE
County Sussex
Volume 2B
Page 55
Country England
Record set England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Deaths & burials
Collections from Great Britain

Thanks for the info. I have all of this on record, it was his time between 1890 and 1911 and death records I'm looking for. The death you list is too late as Harriet was widowed before 1911 census. Many thanks for your help though.

Birth doesn't have a middle name Henry?:-

Name: John Langley Allen
Registration Year: 1857
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Rye
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Sussex
Volume: 2b
Page: 1

....................on the marriage record he gives his father's name as Thomas and yet you state that his mother was Caroline and was unmarried?

Do you have the birth certificate and if so what exactly does it say?

The birth certificate just gives Caroline Allen unmarried. Her mothers surname is Allen. I think Thomas was in fact JHL's grandfather.

If this is him in 1861:-

Name: John Allen
Age: 3
Estimated birth year: 1858
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Rye, Sussex, England
Civil Parish: Rye
Town: Rye
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street address: 23 church Square
Occupation:
Registration district: Rye
Sub-registration district: Rye
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 106
Piece: 557
Folio: 43
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Allen 42 - Pauper
Caroline Allen 20 - 1841 born: Rye, Sussex
Sarah Allen 15
Mary Allen 13
John Allen 3

.......................................

............then this looks to be same family in 1851:-

Name: Caroline Allen
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Mary Allen
Gender: Female
Where born: Playden, Sussex, England
Civil Parish: Rye
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
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Town: Rye
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street address: Little London
Occupation:
Registration district: Romney Marsh
Sub-registration district: New Romney
ED, institution, or vessel: 4e
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 48
Piece: 1634
Folio: 344
Page Number: 11
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Allen 32
Caroline Allen 11
George Allen 9
Sarah Allen 6
Mary Allen 3
Henry Gatton 40

........................................


..........in which case this would be them in 1841:-

Name: Emerline Allen
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Gender: Female
Where born: Sussex, England
Civil Parish: Playden
Hundred: Goldspur
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street address: Salt Barn
Registration district: Rye
Sub-registration district: Rye
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1106
Book: 6
Folio: 3
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
George Allen 35 - Ag.Lab.
Mary Allen 20
Emerline Allen 1 (original clearly shows name as Caroline)


So her father looks to be called George and not Thomas.


Deaths Mar 1848 (>99%)
Allen George Rye 7 392

1891 census show there are 4 children:-

Caroline Allen 11
John Allen 9
Thomas Allen 9
Ethel Allen 4

Do you have the birth certificates of them all? This should show if John is noted as the father, or not.

This looks to be the youngest daughter Ethel's baptism:-

Name: Ethel Allen
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 20 Sep 1886
Christening Date: 2 Dec 1888
Christening Place: Rye, Sussex, England
Age at Christening: 2
Father's name: Thomas Allen
Mother's name: Harriett

.............but father is noted as Thomas and not John??
So it's a good possibility that Ethel was illegitimate.

Thomas and John's baptism records:-

Name: Thomas Allen
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 18 Jun 1881
Christening Date: 7 Aug 1881
Christening Place: Rye, Sussex, England
Age at Christening: 0
Father's name: John Henry Langley Allen
Mother's name: Harriet Murcer


Name: John Allen
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 18 Jun 1881
Christening Date: 7 Aug 1881
Christening Place: Rye, Sussex, England
Age at Christening: 0
Father's name: John Henry Langley Allen
Mother's name: Harriet Murcer


...................so born just after the census was taken.

Harriett may have just said she was a widow on the census records to hide the fact that he had left her and her children.

The marriage certificates of the children may give you a clue as to if he really was deceased, or not.
(Just a thought)

Was looking at this on ancestry:-

John Allen
in the New South Wales, Australia, Police Gazettes, 1854-1930
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Name: John Allen
Birth Year: abt 1857
Age: 37
Event Place: Albury, New South Wales, Australia
Event Type: Other
Publication Date: 7 Feb 1894
Page #: 52


but don't have world wide so can't see what it says.

Re: the Police Gazette entry - basically there was a warrant for his arrest for failing to appear as a witness.

There is also an 1897 gaol admission for a John Allen (aka Helum or Allum) born 1857 England - offence was receiving.

Such a common name could be anyone really.

Just a note re: the birth record - it DOES show the full middle name

Births Dec 1857
Allen John Henry Langley Rye 2b 1

- this is exactly what shows on the register. It appears that the record Catherine posted is the Ancestry version and they do sometimes mess them up.