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Gritty - you are a marvel. Thank you so very much for that very interesting information. I am very grateful.

Baptism for Martha:
Name: Martha Randle
Baptism Date: 12 Nov 1811
Baptism Place: Exhall, Warwickshire, England
Father: Robert Randle
Mother: Mary Randle

The marriage for William & Elizabeth states Elizabeth's father was William- so Martha and Elizabeth were not sisters (unless Elizabeth didn't know her father's name?):

Name: William Ashley (widower)
Age: Full Age
Occ: Weaver
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Randle
Spouse Age: 20
Marriage or Bann Date: 25 Dec 1839
Event Type: Marriage
Parish: Bedworth
Father Name: Thomas Ashley- weaver
Spouse Father Name: William Randle- collier

Baptism for Elizabeth:
Name: Elizabeth Randle
Parish: Bedworth
Baptism Date: 11 Mar 1821
Father's name: William Randle- miner
Mother's name: Mary Randle

Oh, there is this document on ancestry that declares mother of Dorcas Ashley (Martha) as dead- confirming Elizabeth was definitely a different person :)

Name: Dorcas Ashley
Birth Date: 11 Aug 1831
Birth Place: Bedworth, Warwickshire, England
Gender: Female
Event Type: Birth
Father: William Ashley
Mother: Martha Randle
Denomination: Presbyterian, Independent or Baptist

This is to certify that Dorcas, the daughter of William Ashley, Ribbon Weaver, and Martha Ashley, his wife (who was the daughter of Robert Randle, collier), of the Parish of Exall, in the county of Warwick, was born at the house of Thomas Ashley, father to the above Wm Ashley, in the county of Bedworth, on the 11th day of August 1831.
Signed by parents
- William Ashley,
Mother- dead

Marriage:
First name(s) Martha
Last name Randle
Marriage year 1829
Marriage date 01 Jan 1829
Marriage place Bedworth,Warwick,England
Spouse's first name(s) William
Spouse's last name Ashley
Place Bedworth
County Warwickshire
Country England

I should say they are different people- Elizabeth was only 11 in 1832

You would not believe this folks but nothing I touch seems straightforward. You will note from the census returns above that there is a daughter Dorcas who appears to be born before William Ashley married Elizabeth in 1839. According to freebmd she was Elizabeth RANDLE I decided to look more closely at Dorcas and found her christening details - father William Ashley - mother MARTHA RANDLE (Matha's father Robert) . Work that one out !! Was William a naughty boy and had Dorcas out of wedlock with Martha or had he been married to Martha, was Martha a sister of Elizabeth ??? or are Martha and Elizabeth one and the same ? You couldn't make it up could you ???

and baptism of later Luther:

Name: Luther William Ashley
Gender: Male
Birth Date: Sep 1858
Baptism Date: 25 May 1864
Baptism Place: Bedworth,Warwick,England
Father: William Ashley
Mother: Elizabeth
FHL Film Number: 555454, 555455

and his death:

Name: Luther William Ashley
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Registration Year: 1895
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 37
Registration district: Rugby
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: 358

Thanks everyone - I thought I was going mad but I am fast coming to the conclusion that William and Elizabeth had two sons - one Luther who dies - and another Luther William who married Clara White but who flits between giving his full name and just Luther. Oh what frustrating ancestors !!

Posible death of first Luther?

Deaths Jun 1854 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ashley Luther Foleshill 6d 228

Folehill district dovers Bedford.

Edit: Sorry, just noticed that you had that.

He is certainly theirs!


Name: Luther Ashley
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 30 Sep 1849
Baptism Date: 16 May 1853
Baptism Place: Bedworth,Warwick,England
Father: William Ashley
Mother: Elizabeth
FHL Film Number: 555454, 555455


And the later one too
Name: Luther William Ashley
Gender: Male
Birth Date: Sep 1858
Baptism Date: 25 May 1864
Baptism Place: Bedworth,Warwick,England
Father: William Ashley
Mother: Elizabeth
FHL Film Number: 555454, 555455

Hi Shirley - yes Luther William married a Clara White but doesn't it confuse matters when he does not give his full name if Luther William for the census purpose !!

oh- some confusion on his birth year between the 1881 & 1891:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
King Street, Bedworth, Foleshill, Warwickshire, England
Luther Ashley Head Married Male 32 1849 Boot & Shoe Factor Prudential Bedworth, Warwickshire,
Clara Ashley Wife Married Female 23 1858 Dressmaker Warwickshire,
Ernest A Ashley Son Single Male 0 1881 - Bedworth, Warwickshire,
-----------------------------------------------------------

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Crick, Rugby, Warwickshire, England

Luther Ashley Head Married Male 32 1859 Agent Prudential Assurance Bedworth, Warwickshire,
Clara Ashley Wife Married Female 33 1858 - Nuneaton, Warwickshire, England
Ernest Ashley Son - Male 18 1873 Scholar Bedworth, Warwickshire, England
Harry Ashley Son - Male 9 1882 Scholar Bedworth, Warwickshire, England
Frank Ashley Son - Male 5 1886 Scholar Bedworth, Warwickshire, England
John Ashley Son - Male 3 1888 - Warwickshire, England
Arthur Ashley Son - Male 0 1891 - Crick, Northamptonshire, England

Shirley - I have found baptisms on familysearch for Luther and Luther William in Bedworth both with parents William and Elizabeth. The only indication of a possible death for Luther was on freebmd. Thanks for reading

However there is a Luther Ashley on the 1881 census born c 1849

England & Scotland Census Transcription
King Street, Bedworth, Foleshill, Warwickshire, England

Luther Ashley Head Married Male 32 1849 Boot & Shoe Factor Prudential Bedworth, Warwickshire, England Transcription
Clara Ashley Wife Married Female 23 1858 Dressmaker Warwickshire, England Transcription
Ernest A Ashley Son Single Male 0

For reference:
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Congreves Buildings, Congreves Square, Bedworth, Foleshill, Warwickshire, England

William Ashley Head Married Male 39 1812 Ribbon Weaver Bedworth, Warwickshire,
Elizabeth Ashley Wife Married Female 30 1821 Ribbon Weaver Bedworth, Warwickshire, England
Darcas Ashley Daughter Unmarried Female 19 1832 Ribbon Weaver Bedworth, Warwickshire,
Zillah Ashley Daughter Unmarried Female 6 1845 Scholar Bedworth, Warwickshire,
Israel Ashley Son Unmarried Male 4 1847 Scholar Bedworth, Warwickshire, England
Luther Ashley Son Unmarried Male 1 1850 - Bedworth, Warwickshire, England
--------------------------------------------------

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Church Court, Bedworth, Foleshill, Warwickshire, England

William Ashley Head Married Male 49 1812 Ribbon Manufacturer Bedworth, Warwickshire,
Elizabeth Ashley Wife Married Female 40 1821 Ribbon Manufacturer Bedworth, Warwickshire
Dorcus Ashley Daughter Unmarried Female 29 1832 Ribbon Manufacturer Bedworth, Warwickshire,
Zillah Ashley Daughter Unmarried Female 16 1845 Ribbon Manufacturer Bedworth, Warwickshi
Israel Ashley Son Unmarried Male 14 1847 Ribbon Manufacturer Bedworth, Warwickshire,
Mary Ann Ashley Daughter Unmarried Female 6 1855 Scholar Bedworth, Warwickshire,
Luther Ashley Son - Male 2 1859 Scholar Bedworth, Warwickshire, England
Ann Sharp Visitor Widow Female 43 1818 Ribbon Weaver Bedworth, Warwickshire,
Roger Sharp Son - Male 9 1852 Scholar Bedworth, Warwickshire,

Sounds likely

Have you found baptisms for them

I have Luther William Ashley b 1858 Bedworth with parents William and Elizabeth (1861 Census) but also have Luther Ashley (without the William) b. 1849 on 1851 census also with parents William and Elizabeth. Both Luther's born Bedworth. I searched and found a death for a Luther Ashley in I think 1854 - do you think that these two Luthers are in fact from the same family ? as I know that sometimes when a child died parents sometimes names another child the same. Any thoughts appreciated.