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Robert Smith married a Helen Lyall in 1805 and they had a son William born in 1806. I have all details thereafter for William and family through to present day. I am blocked on Robert Smith. Helen appears in 1841 and 1851 Census on her own. I assume Robert died before 1841 Census. Helens death record states that Robert was a Wool or Textile Merchant. I cannot find records of any other children other than William. Seeking details of Robert's birth and death, and parents.
Can anyone help? From William onwards through to 1900 the Smiths lived in Logie and Balmullo but William was born to Robert and Helen in Cupar.
Thanks,

If there isn't anything on the free site familysearch, you will need to purchase credits for Scotlands people

SP is not a subscription site.............

With such a common name, finding info may prove very difficult.

You need to have some idea of his age at marriage to even begin to look for death and/or birth

If Robert died before Staturory registration, it may be the best you can hope for is a burial record. If you know where Helen was buried it may be worth trying to find out if Robert is in the same grave. By tracing the burial records you may get a date of burial and, if you're lucky, his age at death.

Are you a member of Fife Family History Society please? I think they hold burial records for some parts of Fife for the period you are looking at.

Presuming (and you should never do that) that Robert could have died anytime from Williams conception and within Fife, a check for Robert Smith deaths show the following from 1805 to 1854 when OPR's were still used. Statutory records in Scotland began in 1855. If he was a wool/textile merchant he may have been away from home at the time of census.

You say Helen was alone on the 1841/51 census - does the 1851 actually record her as a widow.?

Your OPR Deaths & Burials Search Returns
You searched for: Surname: "smith"; Surname Option: Exact; Forename: "robert"; Forename Option: Prefix; Sex: "Any"; Date From: 01 January 1805; Date To: 31 December 1854; County: FIFE;

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Jump to page: of 1 (20 records)
No Date Surname Forename Other Name/Frame No Sex Parish City/County GROSData
1 25/11/1805 SMITH ROBERT ----- M KILRENNY /FIFE 438/00 0020 0151
2 12/04/1814 SMITH ROBERT DAVID SMITH M ST ANDREWS AND ST LEONARDS /FIFE 453/00 0170 0417
3 09/02/1822 SMITH ROBERT ----- M FALKLAND /FIFE 428/00 0030 0235
4 26/11/1824 SMITH ROBERT ----- M AUCHTERMUCHTY /FIFE 406/00 0030 0178
5 02/09/1827 SMITH ROBERT ----- M AUCHTERMUCHTY /FIFE 406/00 0030 0181
6 11/12/1830 SMITH ROBERT ----- M AUCHTERMUCHTY /FIFE 406/00 0030 0187
7 03/12/1831 SMITH ROBERT ----- M CUPAR /FIFE 420/00 0050 0285
8 12/02/1835 SMITH ROBERT ROBERT SMITH M DUNFERMLINE /FIFE 424/00 0180 0080
9 14/01/1837 SMITH ROBERT ----- M FALKLAND /FIFE 428/00 0030 0243
10 06/11/1839 SMITH ROBERT ----- M SCOONIE (FIFE) /FIFE 456/00 0040 0533
11 15/10/1843 SMITH ROBERT THOS SMITH M ST ANDREWS AND ST LEONARDS /FIFE 453/00 0210 0124
12 01/01/1846 SMITH ROBERT ----- M KILCONQUHAR /FIFE 436/00 0040 0311
13 17/05/1847 SMITH ROBERT ----- M ABBOTSHALL /FIFE 399/00 0070 0173
14 13/07/1847 SMITH ROBERT ----- M FERRY PORT ON CRAIG /FIFE 429/00 0030 0275
15 12/12/1847 SMITH ROBERT ----- M CUPAR /FIFE 420/00 0050 0374
16 03/02/1848 SMITH ROBERT ----- M CREICH (FIFE) /FIFE 418/00 0020 0122
17 04/01/1850 SMITH ROBERT ----- M KILRENNY /FIFE 438/00 0030 0250
18 02/02/1850 SMITH ROBERT ----- M KINGLASSIE /FIFE 440/00 0040 0248
19 24/03/1851 SMITH ROBERT ----- M CREICH (FIFE) /FIFE 418/00 0020 0124
20 19/11/1854 SMITH ROBERT ----- M KILMANY (FIFE) /FIFE 437/00 0020 0168

SP credits cost £7 for 30. The above result will cost 1 credit, a further 5 needed to check each record. You will see a copy of the actual death certificate and the information it contains

May be worth looking at these Wills?

SMITH ROBERT 10/06/1859 DRAPER IN FERRYPORT-ON-CRAIG CUPAR SHERIFF COURT INVENTORIES SC20/50/30

SMITH ROBERT 09/05/1851 MANUFACTURER IN BRUNTON, PARISH OF CREICH CUPAR SHERIFF COURT INVENTORIES SC20/50/22

Welcome to the community boards Paul.




(I'll let Paul know how to find his replies) :-)

Thank you Jacqueline, rootgatherer, greyghost, and Cynthia for your comments and advice.
I am very familiar with Scotlands People and have gathered a great many records of my Smith family ancestors (post Robert Smith) from there.
To recap what I do have;
Robert Smith and Helen Lyal marriage in Cupar 13 Oct 1805.
William Smith birth in Cupar 11 Oct 1806 - I have all details of William's marriage and children.
I am unable to find any record of a Helen Lyal, Lyall or Smith with likely age range in the 1841 Census.
Helen Lyal appears in the 1851 Census in Dairsie, age 77, Widow, living with nephew William Paton. She is listed as a Wheelspinner. This William Paton appears in the 1861 or 1871 census as living with Helen's son William and his family.
Helen Lyall death record from 19 Jan 1861 in Dairsie Muir, age 92. Woolspinner and Widow of Roberts Smith, Cotton Manufacturer.
The OPR records in Scotland are very thin on information. Thank you greyghost for spending the credit on Scotlands People and providing the list. The only Robert from that list - based on location - is Robert Smith 1831. I have looked at the record on SP and the only information is died 3 Dec 1831 age 84 of palsy and that he was a Wright.
This info would suggest that Robert was born about 1747 or thereabouts. On the family search site I have found a Robert Smith born in 1748 in Kembach which is only two and half miles from Cupar, Father is Robert Smith and mother Euphan Smith.
Robert's son William had several children but none of them were named Robert or Euphan which goes against Scottish naming patterns of that time. During my searches I had thought that Robert Smith had perhaps been married before. From the approx. birth year and marriage year Robert would have been around 58 when he married Helen, who was about 36, based on her death record.
I had found a Robert Smith who lived closed to Cupar and he had several family pre 1800 and those child names bear a striking similarity to Williams children. I also that Robert's first wife died between 1795 and 1805. Without any census records until 1841 earliest then it is difficult to say if William - who appears to be the only child of Roberts second marriage (also strange) - ever met any of Roberts first family if that was the case. In the 1841 and 1851 census records for Williams family there are no relatives living with them.
based on Williams family locations of Logie, Dairsie and Balmullo over a period of 40-50 years I am assuming that Robert and Helen also did not move so far away from Cupar and her death in Dairsie suggest that too. So rootgatherer thanks for the Wills details but those locations are not so close to the area where the family lived even though the wills are lodged at Cupar.
Again everyone thanks for your contributions.
:-)

Hi All,

Robert and Helen's son William was probably named after Helen's father - William Lyall. Again this might suggest that if Robert had been married previously he already had several children named after his family members and those of his first wife, which may be why Robert and Helen's first (and it seems only child) was named after the mother's father.

Paul, did you know that some of the 1841 census records for Fife have not survived? I believe they met a watery end when being transferred to Edinburgh. That may explained why you haven't found Helen in 1841.

In your opening post you say Robert is listed as a Wool or Textile merchant, but then later say he is listed on Helen's death certificate as a cotton manufacturer- Was Robert's occupation listed on William's death certificate?

As noted by Gritty
From your opening post -
Helens death record states that Robert was a Wool or Textile Merchant

From your 19 June 04.54 post
Widow of Roberts Smith, Cotton Manufacturer.

From that same post, I read it that you are also considering the Robert Smith who died 1831 aged 84 and listed as a Wright?

I would still say (unfortunately for your purposes) that Robert, whether for work, family visit or whatever, may not have died "on the doorstep" so to speak.

Robert Smith is a relatively common name and OPR's have relatively little information to be able to identify the right person. Burial records are notoriously the less well recorded and detailed.

rootgatherer, since Helen was living in Dairsie in 1851 and died at Dairsie Muir in 1861 chances are she would have appeared on the Dairsie census records for 1841 but Dairsie is among the missing census records which were lost.

greyghost I wasn't considering the Robert who died in 1831 I merely noted that his death was in Cupar the place of Roberts marriage and his son William's birth. But his occupation as Wright makes him a doubtful choice. My family research in Fife is fairly extensive and even based on Robert's wife's and William's wife's ancestors I have found that their families did not move great distances over 50-100 years of time. The families remained situated in fairly tight areas of 10-15 mile radius.

What has frustrated me about Robert is that I have researched his wife's family back a further 100 years and also his son's wife just as far back without problem.

As I said the age of Robert at marriage and his much earlier death than his wife Helen still makes me think that this was a second marriage late in his life hence the only child William. The norm at this time in Fife was to have fairly large families.

Again thanks for your comments.

But was Robert's occupation listed on William's death certificate?

Gritty, I have checked back on my records. William was a well-known joiner in the village of Logie between 1840 and 1870. He was mentioned in the Logie Parish directory of 1863. He died in the village of Balmullo (close to Logie) in 1882. His death record confirms he was a joiner. However his parents are listed as Robert Smith- joiner journeyman (deceased) and Elspeth Lyall (deceased) and not Helen Lyall. Interestingly, Helen had a sister named Elspeth. Most of William's children ere farm labourers. Did they merely get the names and occupations crossed with other family relations. After all their grandfather Robert had possibly died before any of them were born and their grandmother Helen may not have been involved in their lives for at least 20-30 years.