Find Ancestors

Your story reminds me of two of "mine"...my mother-in-law's mother is shown in 1911 as Winifred Florence Ellis "adopted daughter" aged 8. I cannot find a birth for her as Ellis or as Winifred Florence ??. I suspect she wasn't registered. I have managed to work out her date of birth but even this hasn't helped.

And then there is a cousin's mother. When she needed to claim her pension, she had to send her birth certificate. It was only then, at the age of 59, that she realised that she was born before her parents married and, therefore, was registered in her mother's maiden name. For a long time she was worried that her marriage wasn't legal as she had declared her name to be that of her father!

In my mother-in-law's mother's case, I am as sure as I can be that she was not adopted; that she was the daughter of her supposed adopting mother and her partner who wasn't her husband. This was the case in her "sister" who was shown in 1911 as "niece", was registered in her father's name showing his "wife" to be her real mother's dead sister!

So they went to some lengths in those days to cover up "indiscretions". I suspect that this might be the case with your mother but how you go about proving it is another thing :-(

Good luck!

Jude

Thank you mgnv for the information.

The old age pensions act 1908 started giving means-tested OAPs in Jan 1909 to 70y olds

https://archive.org/stream/oldagepensionsa00britgoog#page/n38/mode/1up
According to the instructions in the Second Schedule to the
Regulations, in determining the age of any person, "regard may
be had to any of the following documents, viz. : —

" Certificate of birth ;

"Certificate of baptism;

"Certificate of service in any of the forces of the Crown;

"Certificate of membership of any friendly or provident society
or trade union ;

"Certificate of marriage;

"Any other evidence which appears sufficient for the purpose."


Well, b.certs didn't apply to the UK, just mid 1837 thru 1838 for England & Wales.
Consequently, for many folk, their only proof of age was the census (under the last category above), which was opened up for hundreds of individuals.

I'm not sure of the legislation for the 1921 census, but the older census entries could be opened with permission of the Registrar General.


I'm not sure of the relevance, but Nova Scotia ran out of money in the late 1800s, so B & D registration was suspended for abt 20 y..
In the 1950/60s many folk applied for late registrations of births - I've seen applications made for parents and siblings.
What may be of relevance here is those (approved) b.rego's sometimes include a report from the holder of the census, saying the proposed registration is in accordance with their census entry.

Once again thank you so much for your ideas

Gritty
I do have Eleanor Mary Greens death certificate and it wasn't from childbirth but my paper records are in such a mess that I will have to get back to you.

The strange thing is on her death cert it says Eliza Neilson sister. 81 Botanic Road Now William Neilson was the landlord at 81 Botanic Road 1911 but Eliza Twigg is Housekeeper on 1911 census and William Neilson is not there in 1911 but down on census in the first part of census certificate. I have traced William Neilson an electrician to an Aigburth address in 1911 Can only presume electoral person was told he was owner in 1911 but why registrar in 1912 would put Eliza Neilson on her sisters death cert in 1912 is a mystery unless......Eliza had William Neilsons child Vera and she claimed to be his wife on death cert but then says she is spinster in 1914 on marriage to George Whalley in 1914 who was in same house in 1911 where she says spinster.. Doubtful And didn't acknowledge Vera in 1911 census. The plot thickens!!!
William Neilson is married with children in Aigburth in 1911. We did find him previously to 1911 at Botanic Road on electoral roll as an electrician.
Can only find a Vera Green being born to a Harry Green of Woolton who is not Matthews brother but Harry Green is in Jane Greens will ( same name as Matthews mother)
Can only find a Vera Neilson born to another not William Neilson wife Verna maiden name who dies in 1912 and so it continues!!
Sorry if this is confusing

Thank you Jude for your reply I think I will try the Liverpool Passport office my sister helps on the f History help desk at Liverpool library.

Kath
You did make me laugh. I have been treated to a lunch by my son so other half is cooking his tea after watching Tottenham's defeat.
If you tell me your details a fresh pair of eyes may turn up something I am on other sites.
How ever we will never accept defeat
I blame it on my Liverpool upbringing and my mother saying no such word as can't which was amazing coming from her life!
Pat

We have researched Elizas siblings to see whether she took in a niece.
Eleanor mary green died in Eliza's house in 1912 but Matthew Greens will in 1927 says to his two daughters not Vera. Frances Smart died in 1914 her sister but didn't have a Vera.
George Whalleys siblings although a glimmer of hope with his brother William's Vera have proved negative.
have researched the Marsh side but even though some siblings came to Liverpool have not found a Vera as yet.
No I am not holding my breath for census what a pity but understand privacy as some info could upset the living especially as we are living longer to research these elusive ancestors.

I'm afraid I would come to the conclusion that your mother may indeed have been unofficially adopted and you may never find the truth. I can't imagine that any mother who had given birth would have said you were born "around 1910". She would have known exactly when she had given birth!!

Sometimes you just have to accept defeat - although I know this isn't what you want to hear.

I have had to admit defeat in getting back any further than my great grandfather on one line as the names are so common and I can find no information to help find the right family.

I hope I'm wrong and you do eventually find something.

When I started my own research 12 years ago my husband and son told everyone they were on the "family history diet" because I spent all day every day on the computer and there was never any tea ready for them when they came in!!.

Kath. x

sorry Kath should say age 30 ignore/11
My sister and I are overwhelmed at all of you and your kindness so many replies in a short time.
Can't find an emoticon for a tear
I guess you are like us that research is like drug you cannot stop and no one round here gets any tea when I am on the pc trying to find my mothers birth!!!!
Thanks

Kath
It has age 30/11
I remember death tallied with age of 1910/11 birth but then of course if she didn't know it she would go on around 1910 as told my her "mother"
Eliza Whalley's will says to my daughter but then if she brought her up she would say that.
Also the census for Benjamin Marsh and Margaret Marsh (Whalley/Howarth) is down as Marston and not Marsh .The census recorder must have been having a bad day

You didn't have to produce a passport in 1981 to get married. However, to travel abroad you surely would have.

I think the 1921 census is a case of don't hold you breath :-(

Jude

I don't know about passports (I have never had one) but you didn't have to produce a birth certificate to marry in 1969 when I married so I'm sure you didn't have to in 1941.

Did it give an age on your mother's marriage certificate?

Kath. x

Thank you for your quick reply Kath I do appreciate it.
Vera Margaret Whalley born 1910 Liverpool or possibly Vera Marsh- Whalley
we have researched the Vera Whalley births around that time 1910 of Hanley, Newcastle under Lyme, and Staffordshire and find they are not her. The Vera Whalley born in Cheshire (1902??) is her cousin ( father William Whalley brother to George Whalley this Vera later married Matthew Savage and is named in her mother's Jane Whalley probate.)
I cannot find a Vera Fine (going down the S African connection) being born over here. Have also searched Fineberg
My mother married Leonard Jones in 1941 giving the name Vera Whalley by licence at St Barnabus Church Penny Lane Lpool.Presumably by licence she would not have to submit a birth certificate.
Also they went to Dinard in 1950s wouldn't she need a passport with proof of date of birth?
Thanks for your help

Its said that the 1921 will never be made open to the pubic online because the costs of transcribing it are too prohibitive

Thanks Gritty. I added my post before I saw startwiggs reply.

Kath. x

As Gins has said - if you want to give us your mother's name and where and when you think she was born, perhaps someone can help to find the birth reference.

Kath. x

Well thank you for the quick informative reply. Hope my sister and I are still here in
2022 ! No we haven't asked other members as I suppose after so long we think we have done it all so to speak.
We did find a cousin on this site and met up it was wonderful as she had an old photo album of her ancestor who was sister to our Henry Whalley. We are so grateful to Genes Reunited for that special time when we met.
Our problem is that even though we have researched both sides of our supposedly grandparents sides (whalley of Little Marsden) back to the quaker Whalleys in 1400s and the Twiggs back to Tissington in Derbyshire circa 1796 we are stuck going forwards in time.
My mother Vera Margaret Whalley was told by her supposedly mother Eliza Twigg that she was born around 1910 We celebrated her birthday on 4 Oct but she said she didn't know her birthday.Now her mother would know when she was born! Eliza Twigg married George Whalley in Liverpool in 1914 after being together in 1911 in 81 Botanic Road with no Vera,he was a butcher and later had a shop in Smithdown Rd Liverpool.
George's stepfather was Benjamin Marsh born Sheffield (!) as his father William Whalley died just before he was born 1874 and Benjamin had moved to Liverpool and took over the butchers shops. Some owned by George's brothers Howarth,William (Wallasey) and Henry.
My mother died when I was 16 she was an alcoholic and unhappy as she did not know her birthdate etc.so you can see why we are trying to solve the mystery. We have found the answer to why she was marsh whalley ( sadly too late for her)
The only possesions she had which I have now are 7 photos and a book signed to Mrs Marsh Whalley signed I or J Fine Transval S Africa. One of the photos is labelled Mother Jane and Freda and it is stamped on the back Johanesburg they are in 1920s style fashion and the mother looks like mine. She looks Jewish.
The other photos of Mum aged baby to seven taken in a studio setting.
I have found a Isaac Fine bookbinder who is on passenger lists going to New York in 1910 from Liverpool.
So now we are considering DNA to see whether we are Jewish descent and whether we are descended from our new found whalley cousin . Sorry for the long reply but wanted to show you how difficult it is to ask others to research when their precious research time would be taken up with all that we have done already!!
Coincidence that Benjamin Marsh should be from Sheffield ( F. Abel and m. Matilda) also Thomas Twigg b Tissington went to Sheffield as a stonemason supposedly for Sheffield Cathedral (maybe?) and later came to Liverpool by 1851
remarrying a Jane Lunt.
I appreciate your response. As its Mothers Day I am trying yet again maybe she was just taken in as happened in those days but don't want to think down that lane yet.
Thanks again will consider a potted version to ask for help

Hi

I don't know when the 21 census will be released for public viewing but even it was made available early, it wouldn't be for a few more years yet

Have you asked other members to help with the search for your moms birth?

Might be worth a try

Added:

The ruling by the Information Commissioner that resulted in the 1911 census being opened early does not apply to the 1921 census because, unlike the 1911 census, the 1921 census was conducted under the 1920 Census Act, which is still in force and which contains a statutory prohibition on disclosure.

The stated government position from the ONS is "its intention to release the entirety of the 1921 census returns in 2022, in accordance with the non-statutory '100 year rule' which was adopted to reflect this undertaking of confidentiality".

Does anyone know if you can ask for a 1921 census look up early we did it for 1911 census a few years beforehand and were successful. We have been researching for my mothers birth certificate for 39 years so we are getting desperate she was not on 1911 now want to check if she is at an address aged 10 in 1921.