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VALERIE
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2 Mar 2015 17:52 |
I am looking for our long lost Granny who was born ALBERTA ALETA DE LA GRANGE in Durban, South Africa. She married my grandfather JOHN MARTIN COLLINS ( in Durban) on 20th July 1917 - they travelled via ship to Southampton and she lived in the UK with him and their three sons until he died suddenly in 1924. Her last known address that I have after his death was 22 Wells Street, London W1 on 2/09/1924. She appears to have vanished into thin air after giving her three sons up for fostering. Please can anyone help find what happened to her.
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greyghost
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2 Mar 2015 18:05 |
Have you discounted this?
England & Wales marriages 1837-2008 Transcription
First name(s) ALBERTA A Last name COLLINS Marriage quarter 3 Marriage year 1958 Registration month - MarriageFinderâ„¢ ALBERTA A COLLINS married JOHN G ROBINSON
District SURREY NORTHERN County Surrey Country England Volume 5G Page 731
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greyghost
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2 Mar 2015 18:06 |
?? England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription
First name(s) ALBERTA A Last name ROBINSON Gender Female Birth year 1878 Age 79 Death quarter 1 Death year 1957 District PORTSMOUTH County Hampshire Volume 6B Page 485 Country England
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AnnCardiff
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2 Mar 2015 18:18 |
Name: John Martin Collins Event Type: Marriage Event Date: 20 Jul 1917 Event Place: Durban, Natal, South Africa Gender: Male Age: 42 Birth Year (Estimated): 1875 Spouse's Name: Alberta Aleta La Grange Spouse's Gender: Female Spouse's Age: 23 Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated): 1894
Reference ID: 135 , GS Film number: 1795576 , Digital Folder Number: 004236646 , Image Number: 01722
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AnnCardiff
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2 Mar 2015 18:20 |
Name: Alberta A Collins Event Type: Marriage Registration Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep Registration Year: 1958 Registration District: Surrey Northern County: Surrey Event Place: Surrey Northern, Surrey, England Spouse Name (available after 1911): Robinson Volume: 5G Page: 731 Line Number: 19
Alberta A Collins probably married one of the following people Name: John G Robinson
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AnnCardiff
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2 Mar 2015 18:22 |
???????????
Name: Aletha Alberta Robinson Event Type: Death Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec Registration Year: 1974 Registration District: Birmingham County: Warwickshire Event Place: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England Birth Date (available after June quarter 1969): 12 Nov 1895 Volume: 32 Page: 0814 Line Number: 88
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AnnCardiff
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2 Mar 2015 18:23 |
Name: Alberta A Robinson Event Type: Death Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar Registration Year: 1957 Registration District: Portsmouth County: Hampshire Event Place: Portsmouth, Hampshire, England Age (available after 1866): 79 Birth Year (Estimated): 1878 Volume: 6B Page: 485 Line Number: 77
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AnnCardiff
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2 Mar 2015 19:11 |
message sent to poster
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AnnCardiff
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2 Mar 2015 21:28 |
thanks for the message - you can respond on here and ask any further questions - use the "reply" box - very easy - any probs, just ask
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AnnCardiff
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2 Mar 2015 23:01 |
message from Valerie
Looking for anything related to my grandparents - grandfather was John Collins or Martin-Collins - changed name from Cohen - married in Durban July 20th 1917
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SylviaInCanada
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3 Mar 2015 01:22 |
who is the Rosaline Collins in your header?????????
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SylviaInCanada
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3 Mar 2015 01:28 |
Rosaline Martin Collins age 19 arrived in Southampton 17 Sept 1919, shown as housewife
with John Martin Collins, Retiree
UK, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
Name: Rosaline Martin Collins Birth Date: abt 1900 Age: 19 Port of Departure: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Arrival Date: 17 Sep 1919 Port of Arrival: Southampton, England Ports of Voyage: Cape Town Ship Name: Runic Search Ship Database: Search for the Runic in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database Shipping line: White Star Dominion Line Official Number: 113441
Name: John Martin Collins [John Martin Collins] Birth Date: abt 1875 Age: 44 Port of Departure: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Arrival Date: 17 Sep 1919 Port of Arrival: Southampton, England Ports of Voyage: Cape Town Ship Name: Runic
the actual image is very poor, I think the following is correct ......
They boarded the ship in Capetown, and gave the following address:-
Hotel Russell Russell Square, London
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VALERIE
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3 Mar 2015 08:00 |
Dear Well Dressing - thank you very much for the information - I do have my grandparents marriage certificate that I found by visiting the records office in Pietermaritzburg, South Africa. I only had my grandmothers 'British' name of Rosaline Collins or Martin-Collins then but knew that they were married there and my grandfather had changed name and religion from Cohen to Collins and Jewish to Church of England. My grandmother was Roman Catholic. The marriage certificate did state that he was 42 years old and Grandmother was 23 years old . From information that I received from Barnados in the UK ( when she placed two of her small sons there due to her husband dying on 1st July 1924 aged 49), she had told them she was 26! This meant to me that she was born in 1898? The rest of the information that she gave to Barnados was that she was of French extraction born in SA and her mother died when she was 18 months old and was then brought up in a Roman Catholic convent. Her father died in 1915 ( she would have been 17) and he was a farmer in SA. She then married my grandfather in 1917 ( aged 19?) and in 1919 they came to England.I did find the incoming passenger list thank you that you have posted. I believe that she may have lied about her age when she married as there is a column on the marriage certificate that under 21 years of age needs parental consent and of course they were both deceased by then. Her name on the marriage certificate is Alberta Aleta la Grange age 23 years. My grandfather is named as John Martin Collins on the marriage certificate. On the two eldest sons birth certificates he is named as John Martin-Collins and grandmother is named as Rosaline Martin -Collins formerly La Grange and the second son ( my father), Rosaline Martin-Collins, formerly Dela Grange. The youngest son has John Martin Collins and Rosaline Collins formerly De La Grange. All of the sons are deceased now but I have found a first cousin in New Zealand (September 2011) and we have become very close and met up in the last few years a few times. She recalls her father (the youngest son) telling her that he was being dressed in his best clothes and taken to The Hotel Russell to meet an 'old' lady?? She would not have been elderly if this was his mother but not sure who it was - as they gave that address, maybe they knew someone who was there when they arrived from SA? The eldest son was born in the county of Southampton on 19th January 1920 and so I guess she was pregnant on the journey from SA? There are many mysteries for us as she seemed to disappear following my grandfathers untimely death in Gillingham, Kent in 1924. The youngest son was less than 4 months old when she asked the RC priest to find someone to look after him and she would return as she had no money. The older two were placed with Barnados for only 6 months which indicates that she hoped to return for them too as they were not put up for adoption. The oldest son, Leslie Victor Collins I believe was in the Merchant navy and died in America. Social security index: Leslie V. Collins , SSN 129-20-6784, born 19th January 1920, Died 10th December 1996.
Thank you very much for anything that you have, or do find, as it is quite a task.
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greyghost
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3 Mar 2015 10:53 |
The births of the 3 sons were registered in several different ways and the family certainly travelled around! Thank goodness FMP threw them up (just by entering Collins/Grange) under the various surname/mothers maiden name combinations to then find on freebmd
Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Mar 1920 (>99%) Collins Leslie V La Grange Southampton 2c 143
Births Mar 1920 (>99%) Martin-Collins Leslie V Le Grange Southampton 2c 143
Births Mar 1923 (>99%) Martin-Collins Howard De La Grange Lancaster 8e 1085
Births Jun 1924 (>99%) Collins Richard P De la Grange Medway 2a 1249
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SylviaInCanada
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3 Mar 2015 17:55 |
Valerie
Thank you for the fuller explanation ..... that could give us more information on what / who / where to look
Sylvia (In Canada)
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VALERIE
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3 Mar 2015 18:41 |
Thank you Sylvia - very grateful for your assistance
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VALERIE
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7 Mar 2015 16:30 |
I am looking for my Grandfathers three brothers who resided at The Odd or Old Fellows in Pitt Street, Sydney in July 1924. Their names were Cohen and they sent money to my Grandmother in the UK when my grandfather, (who had changed his name from Cohen) named John Martin Collins died on the 1st July 1924 leaving her with three small sons.
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JoonieCloonie
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7 Mar 2015 22:01 |
Valerie I think everyone was rather fully occupied trying to figure out the original part of your query :-)
Pitt Street, Sydney, is in NSW Australia (always wise to specify country, people here are from all over ... you may be using the .com.au or .za or .nz version of this site but most here are reading your posts on .co.uk).
John Martin Collins/Cohen was born c1875 ... in South Africa?
do you know any of the brothers' first names? that information is rather essential if you have it
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search
I looked at Cohen births in NSW for a John c1875 and there seems to be no match with any John who had three brothers (searching births 1860-1890 with the same mother as any of the John or Jonas births)
I assume they were all born in SA ... but the three brothers settled in NSW?
Oddfellows is a fraternal organization
http://www.manta.com/ic/mvm4prc/au/manchester-unity-independent-order-of-oddfellows
Manchester Unity Independent Order Of Oddfellows Manchester Unity Travel 307 Pitt St Sydney, NSW 2000, Australia
this site http://www.sydneyarchitecture.com/cbd/cbd4-052.htm suggests that the Oddfellows moved to Pitt St after 1923
more info about Oddfellows in Australia: http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/themes/2003/grand-united-order-of-oddfellows
ultimately 'Then in March 2005, Grand United Friendly Society (New South Wales) merged with Australian Unity.' http://www.australianunity.com.au/about-us
... unfortunately it doesn't seem likely that the organization would have records from the early days as a travellers' lodge ...
if his brothers were born sometime around the same time as John (the 1870s) it seems odd they would all be single and staying at this lodge in the 1920s ... perhaps they used it as a postal address ...
available NSW electoral rolls only begin in 1930 http://search.ancestry.com/search/db.aspx?dbid=1207
in 1930 there were 794 Cohens on the electoral roll in NSW ... 99 male Cohens in Sydney ...
There are so many Cohens in the NSW BMD indexes that it would be hopeless to try to identify them without their names or at least their parents' names (which are shown in the deaths index ... if they were known)
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JoonieCloonie
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7 Mar 2015 22:13 |
the death that AnnCardiff posted of Aletha Alberta Robinson in Birmingham is interesting
it could match with this death for the husband
Name: John G Robinson Birth Date: abt 1894 Date of Registration: Sep 1966 Age at Death: 72 Registration district: Birmingham Inferred County: Warwickshire Volume: 9c Page: 41
into all our lives the price of a few certificates must fall ... you will want to consider some of these ideas and decide whether to order a marriage and/or death certificate to check them out, for instance
you say you have your grandparents' marriage certificate - does it not name one or both of John's parents??
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JoonieCloonie
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7 Mar 2015 22:45 |
My suspicion was that the 1958 marriage of Alberta A Collins (who may have died as Aletha Alberta Robinson) and John G Robinson at an advanced age for marriage was a result of him being already married ... and they might have partnered well before that
(I have discounted this possibility now, read on, but leave this here for ruling out)
and I found this entry on the electoral roll for 1939
Name: Aletha Alberta Robinson Year: 1939 Street address: 62 COMMON LANE Residence Place: Birmingham
at the same address as John Henry Robinson
also
Name: Aletha A Robinson Year: 1945 Ward or Division/Constituency: Erdington Street address: 79 WRIGHT ROAD Residence Place: Birmingham
Name: Aletha A Robinson Year: 1950 Ward or Division/Constituency: Stechford Street address: 79 WAKKJvN KUAJD (?) Residence Place: Birmingham
again with John H Robinson in both instances
there is no other record in England (birth, marriage, death) for the given names 'Aletha Alberta'
I think this possibility is well worth considering and I would get both the marriage and death certificates suggested:
Marriages Sep 1958 COLLINS Alberta A ROBINSON Surrey N. 5g 731 ROBINSON John G COLLINS Surrey N. 5g 731
Name: Aletha Alberta Robinson Event Type: Death Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec Registration Year: 1974 Registration District: Birmingham County: Warwickshire Event Place: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England Birth Date: 12 Nov 1895 Volume: 32 Page: 0814 Line Number: 88
>>>>>>>>> but here is where I shoot down this theory
Marriages Jun 1936 Kemp Aletha A Robinson Birmingham 6d 1146 Robinson John H Kemp Birmingham 6d 1146
previously
Marriages Jun 1922 KEMP Henry Seale Aston 6d 1013 SEALE Aletha A Kemp Aston 6d 1013
............... so sadly, no, that is not your Alberta Aleta alias Rosaline ... although there is no birth or previous marriage to account for the name Aletha Seale ... but the 1922 marriage rules her out in any case
however, the other weirdly coincidental marriage is still worth investigating
Marriages Sep 1958 COLLINS Alberta A ROBINSON Surrey N. 5g 731 ROBINSON John G COLLINS Surrey N. 5g 731
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