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Is it possible that his birth was not registered?
In 1891 census he is with the family of William Dale who was a widower at Kirbymills, Kirbymoorside North Riding

His wife Elizabeth nee Ward died leaving William with two step daughters (hers, both illeg) and David, entered as nephew.

The only birth for David is Sept 1882 in Kirbymoorside Workhouse and his mother is Sarah Ann Ward, no father on BC. BUT there is no family connection between Sarah Ann Ward and Ann Dale nee Ward.

Can't find a baptism for David either which is odd if he was Workhouse born.

BUT Ann Ward had a sister Hannah who cared for Ann when her first daughter was born so I thought placing David was a reciprical arrangement.
Any ideas welcome!
Anita

for our info, for the personal details for your David Ward, is this him in 1911?

Name: David Ward
Age in 1911: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1884
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Male
> Birth Place: Kirbymoorside, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Gillamoor Fadmoor
County/Island: Yorkshire-North Riding
Country: England
Street address: Fadmoor Kirby Moorside
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Waggoner (farm)
Registration district: Helmsley
Sub-registration district: Kirkby Moorside

do you know whether he married or anything else about him?


I can't find William Dale or David Ward in 1891 at Ancestry ... could you give more details about what info is given for him in that year? esp place of birth


1901

Name: David Ward
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Kirkby Moorside, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Fadmoor
Ecclesiastical parish: Kirkby Moorside All Saints
County/Island: Yorkshire
Registration district: Helmsley
Sub-registration district: Kirkby Moorside

got all his census. Birth in Kirbymoorside are usually registered in Helmsley and the only one in is the 1882.
On Ancestry:
This is 1891
NAME: Ada Ward
AGE: 20
ESTIMATED BIRTH YEAR: abt 1871
RELATION: Stepdaughter
GENDER: Female
WHERE BORN: Scarborough, Yorkshire, England
CIVIL PARISH: Kirkby Moorside
ECCLESIASTICAL PARISH: Kirkby Moorside
TOWN: Kirkby Moorside
COUNTY/ISLAND: Yorkshire
COUNTRY: England
STREET ADDRESS:

OCCUPATION:

CONDITION AS TO MARRIAGE:

EDUCATION:

EMPLOYMENT STATUS:

View image
REGISTRATION DISTRICT: Helmsley
SUB REGISTRATION DISTRICT: Kirkby Moorside
ED, INSTITUTION, OR VESSEL: 16
NEIGHBORS: View others on page
PIECE: 3987
FOLIO: 147
PAGE NUMBER: 7
HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS:
NAME AGE
William Dale 32
Ada Ward 20
Annie Ward 12
David Ward 8
Edith Ward 1

I understand you have all the censuses ... information is not useful to others trying to help if you have it and we don't :-)

that 1891 is for a stepdaughter of William Dale

this is David

Name: David Ward
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Kirkby Mills, Yorkshire, England

just wanted to see what was reported for his age and place of birth


it seems more likely to me that he is the David Ward born and registered in the right place at the right time than that his birth wasn't registered ... but what the connection might be ... you have identified mother Sarah Ann Ward?

I asked about marriage in case he gave a father's name when he married - ?

Were William Dale and Ann Ward in fact married? I don't see a marriage ... or a death in Helmsley reg dist for Ann Dale (except in 1881) or Ann Ward ... and you have also identified Ann, i.e. know who was in her family?

can you tell us which person your connection is to so we have an idea of what you know about the various people?

William Dale and Elizabeth Ward were married
I have the BC as I said above naming Sarah Ann Ward as his mother but no father.
I have no connection directly doing this for a family member.
I have traced the families of both Sarah Ann and Ann back three generations. Ann family all Kirbymoorside, Sarah Ann family all Pickering, close but not close enough.
What I need is any other possible birth for a David Ward and/or a baptism.
Anita

the thing is there seems to be no marriage for Ann Ward and William Dale ... can you give the details you have? this kind of thing definitely helps, to know what names to be looking for

can you say how you know that Sarah Ann Ward was from Pickering?

I'm sorry if I seem to be repeating myself, but sometimes facts that are asserted by someone turn out not to be correct and it's important to know what is actually certain

for instance that that is the right Sarah Ann Ward :-)

you haven't said when Ann Ward Dale died ... the only possible death I see is

Deaths Mar 1881
DALE Ann 27 Helmsley 9d 283

and that might make me wonder whether possibly David was a little older than reported, and if Ann died in childbirth or shortly after, there might have been a failure to register his birth ... but since I don't know when she and William supposedly married and when she died ...

these are William Dale's stepdaughters Ada and Annie in 1881 in Kirby Moorside

Ann Hinshella 59 [it's Kinshella]
Elizabeth Ward 29 daughter
Edward Hinshella 26 son
Ada Ward 10 granddaughter
Annie Ward 2 granddaughter

That's Ann Ward Dale's mother Ann Kinshella? (widowed by second marriage)

Marriages Mar 1854
KINSHLA James Helmsley 9d
Ward Ann Helmsley 9d 538

but Ann Ward not in household

Was it Elizabeth Ward (sister of Hannah) who had the 2 illegitimate daughters? ( Not that this helps with who David is)
1851
Ann Ward b 1822
Hannah Ward b 1844

1851 - Elizabeth Ward born Q3

1854 - Ann Ward marries James Kinshla

1861
James Kinshella b 1829
Ann Kinshella b 1823
Elizabeth Kinshella b 1852 (WARD)
Edward Kinshella b 1855

1871
James Kinshella b 1828 (Dies 1878)
Ann Kinshella b 1823

and in Scarborough
Hannah Ward b 1845 Head
Elizabeth Ward b 1854 Sister <<<<<<<<<<<
Ada Ward b 1870 Niece

1881
Ann Hinshella b 1822
Elizabeth Ward b 1852 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Edward Hinshella b 1855
Ada Ward b 1871
Annie Ward b 1879

1891
William Dale b 1859
Ada Ward b 1871 step dau
Annie Ward b 1879 Step dau
David Ward b 1883 Nephew
Edith Ward b 1890 Step G Dau

Possible marriage 1881 Middlesborough?????
William Dale married Elizabeth Ward or Ann Elizabeth Marshall (other male Roland Truman)

Possible Death 1890
Elizabeth Dale age 37 b 1853 Helmsley RD - same RD as census for family

Yes that is a lot of references. I think they are all correct. BUT still cannot identify David's birth/baptism and BC mother does not fit anywhere with the family he is later nephew in. If he wasn't related he would be a visitor, lodger or boarder and although many census entries give odd relationships I think this is correct.
PS On his marriage certificate he gives his father as George Ward but there is no such person anywhere in the whole North Riding!
My own father but a bogus 'father' on his MC! not an unusual occurance.
I still think he is the child of Hannah Ward who was taken in by her sister when she left/died - no trace of her after 1881 and when Ann Ward died he remained with her husband and his 'cousins'?
The birth of David Ward in Kirbymoorside Workhouse, mother Sarah Ann, simply doesn't fit with the 1891 census.
Still a mystery
Look like I'm off to Northallerton as Kirbymoorside baptisms are not online for the date 1882.
Many thank
Initial question still stands- is an unregistered birth possible??? :-S

Yes, I did say it didn't help with David, but you have put ANN Ward as the mother and I was asking if it were not ELIZABETH, sighting the above records. Other helpers have said that they don't see a marriage for Ann to Wm Dale or the death of an Ann Dale so my post might help explain that side of it.

If Hannah was David's mother then she would have been c age 38 when she had him - obviously not impossible!

so is there any evidence of the existence of Ann Ward Dale at all? :-)

I just wish we could have a clear outline of the facts and sources behind the question ... such as the marriage and death of Ann Ward Dale, or where that name came from to start with

as I said, something asserted as a fact may not be factual at all ... and 'Ann Ward' looks like maybe one of those 'facts'


I agree that Elizabeth Ward is looking like the likeliest candidate

Deaths Dec 1890
Dale Elizabeth 37 Helmsley 9d 296

oops sorry, greyghost had included that



'On his marriage certificate he gives his father as George Ward but there is no such person anywhere in the whole North Riding!'

but it was not uncommon for a person to make up a father out of various bits of truth

such as: the same surname as themself ... and the given name of their stepfather, grandfather, uncle ... or real father

so the name 'George Ward' could still hold a clue

oh dear I have got mixed up. Yes the person who married William Dale is ELIZABETH Ward and Hannah was her sister. Ann Ward was their mother and they were both illegitimate.
Marriage is Ward Elizabeth Middlesbro' 9d 848 spouse William Dale

David had no stepfather and there is no one at all in the family or area called George Ward - labourer.

Apologies for error and having to leave last night.
Anita

The mother on David's birth cert Sarah Ann Ward was born 1857 and baptised in Pickering 13 January, father William, mother Hannah (FSO).

I have her census 1861, 1871 and 1881 all in Pickering and as PoB on census.. She died unmarried in 1884 so that also makes her David an orphan.

The only other David Ward born 1880-1885 David Albert Ward , was born 1881 and died 1882 in Guisboro.

Anita ... how do you know who Sarah Ann Ward on David's birth certificate was?

in 1881 is she the Sarah Ann Ward born 1857 Pickering living in New Malton, reg dist Malton? so you are looking at the death aged 27 in Malton reg dist in Dec Q 1884, but what became of the David Ward born in Helmsley reg dist in 1882? that Sarah Ann Ward's mother Hannah Ward was in Marton in Pickering in 1881 ... there seems to be no connection with Kirby Moorside ...


I would have thought this Sarah A Ward a much more likely candidate for the one who was the 1882 mother


1871

Name: Sarah A Ward
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Female
Where born: Kirkby Moorside, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Kirkby Moorside
Ecclesiastical parish: Kirkby Moorside
Town: Kirkby Moorside
County/Island: Yorkshire
Registration district: Helmsley
Sub-registration district: Kirkby Moorside

> in the Union Workhouse with:
Jane Ward 28 unmarried, domestic servant, born c1843 Helmsley
David Ward 5
Mariam Ward 2


1881

Name: Sarah A. Ward
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relationship to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Kirby Moorside, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Gillamoor
County/Island: Yorkshire
Registration district: Helmsley
Sub registration district: Kirby Moorside


Births Mar 1863
WARD Sarah Ann Helmsley 9d 367


in fact I'd be rather sure of it :-)

mother Jane Ward is in Kirby Moorside in subsequent censuses


here is Jane in 1851 in Bilsdale Midcable, Helmsley reg dist:

David Knaggs 43
Sarah Knaggs 39 born Kirbymoorside
Sarah Ward 55 widowed mother of Sarah Knaggs
Robert Ward 14 brother-in-law i.e. brother of Sarah Knaggs born Kirby Mill
Jane Ward 10 niece i.e. of Sarah Knaggs

Jane Ward's aunt and uncle:

Marriages Dec 1842
KNAGGS John Helmsley 24 349
WARD Sarah Helmsley 24 349

it seems rather unlikely that Robert born c1837 was the brother of Sarah born c1812 ... I wonder whether he wasn't Sarah Knaggs' son ... and 39-yr-old Sarah Knaggs' widowed mother would really likely have been older than 55 ... or Sarah Knaggs was younger than 39

wait ... Robert wasn't 14, he was 24, mistranscribed, so c1827, born Kirby Mill, so it makes more sense that he was Sarah Knaggs' brother


I can see David Knaggs in 1841 in Helmsley but not Sarah Ward or Robert Ward

however on the same and facing census pages are William and Mary Ward, 62 and 53, and their son William ... and there is a Hannah Ward aged 11 in David Knaggs' household

aha, and in 1841 we also have in Helmsley

Sarah Medd 45
Margret Medd 15
Thomas Medd 15
John Medd 10
Isaac Fairwather 25
> Robert Ward 15 ag lab
Sarah Willson 13


I wonder whether Sarah Ward c1786 in Kirby Moorside in 1841, widow with daughter Elizabeth, is the one who was:
- Sarah Ward Sr mother of Sarah Ward Knaggs c1812
- grandmother of Jane Ward 1842
- great-grandmother of Sarah Ann Ward 1863
- great-great-grandmother of David Ward 1882

David Knaggs was in district 15a in 1841
Robert Ward was in district 15 in 1841 on page 3
there is a Sarah Ward in district 15 on page 1, an ag lab aged 25, who I might think was Sarah Ward Knaggs


So in any case Jane Ward was, at least supposedly, the child of a sibling of Sarah Ward Knaggs, and the mother of Sarah Ward Knaggs and her sibling was widowed Sarah Ward


but since Jane's aunt's husband was David, and Jane lived in her aunt's houshold, and Jane had a son (Sarah Ann's brother) named David, the name David might seem a natural choice for Jane's daugher Sarah Ann to make for her own son


Births Mar 1842
Ward Jane Helmsley 24 371

I would get that birth certificate, for the mother of the Sarah Ann Ward who I think we can be confident was actually the mother of David Ward 1882

and here's something interesting

1882 to 1891 there are 2 Sarah Ann Ward events in Helmsley reg dist

death of a Sarah Ann Ward aged 37 in 1883 -- too old by far to be the Sarah Ann Ward that I believe is yours

and

Marriages Sep 1886
Evers George Helmsley 9d 594
POTTER Annie Helmsley 9d 594
WARD Sarah Ann Helmsley 9d 594
and the undoubted missing person
BAXTER Thomas Helmsley 9d 694 (page number shown as incorrect)


so did Sarah Ann Ward marry George Evers?

looks like she did

1891

Name: Sarah A Evers
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Kirbymoorside, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Thornton Dale
Ecclesiastical parish: Thornton Dale
Town: Thornton Dale
County/Island: Yorkshire
Registration district: Pickering
Sub registration district: Allerston

Sarah A Evers 28
Annie Evers 6
Alice Evers 4
Jane Evers 3

husband George is shown as a single farm servant in Pickering, born c1856 in Thornton, I think ... if so, this is him in 1861

Name: Geo Evers
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: 1860
Relation: Son
Father's name: Henry Evers
Mother's name: Jane Evers
Gender: Male
Where born: Thornton Dale, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Thornton Dale
County/Island: Yorkshire
Registration district: Pickering
Sub-registration district: Allerston


and the Sarah Ann Ward + George Evers marriage certificate would establish his identity ... and determine whether she matches the information for the daughter of Jane Ward, i.e. age and whether she named a father

Deaths Jun 1896
Evers Sarah Ann 32 Pickering 9d 291

Deaths Dec 1901
Evers George 42 Pickering 9d 303



My bet would be that this is the George whose name your David Ward borrowed for his marriage certificate ... his mother's husband, who may or may not have been his father, but likely not, given the timing




Remember that I didn't suggest that the father named on David's marriage certificate was a real person called George Ward. If you read again what I said ...


but it was not uncommon for a person to make up a father out of various bits of truth
such as: the //same surname\\ as themself and the //given name\\ of their stepfather, grandfather, uncle ... or real father


for instance John Smith, son of unmarried Mary Smith, might have known that his father was Robert Brown ... so when he married, to avoid the appearance of illegitimacy, he would say his father was Robert Smith

Most false names (whether a person's own or the person named as someone's father) were not made up out of whole cloth, there was a grain of truth in them somewhere.


Does David Ward have male-line descendants ... son of the son of his son? if so, I might recommend what I have done myself in the search for a 'real' paternal line surname ... Y-DNA testing.

If someone descended from a common ancestor with David has tested (or tests in future), you might find a pointer to his paternal family. I did, but I have to admit my luck was astounding. :-)



a load of people have George Evers in their trees here at genesreunited

Births Jun 1859
EVERS George Pickering 9d 378

(some showing dob 1860 because that is what censuses round it to)

one of those people also has Sarah Ann Ward 1863 Helmsley
and a different person has Sarah Ward 1863 Kirby Moorside

several people also have William Pilmoor c1845 Kirby Moorside / Kirbymoorside in their tree ... he was Jane Ward's partner 1881 and 1891 (in 1891 he says born Leeds and that is also in the search results for the name ... earlier censuses do indicate Leeds so 1881 is just a ditto ... birth reg as William Pilmer 1846 Leeds

and you will find people with Miriam Ward c1868 Kirby Moorside / Kirbymoorside, daughter of Jane and younger sister of Sarah Ann Ward mother of David ...

oops ... :-)

a family tradition here !

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR72-6Y1

Name: Robert Ward
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 19 Jul 1826
Christening Place: KIRKBY MOORSIDE,YORK,ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Sarah Ward
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C10840-1

... no father named ...


so in the list I proposed

- Sarah Ward c1786 in Kirby Moorside
- mother of Sarah Ward Knaggs c1812
- grandmother of Jane Ward 1842
- great-grandmother of Sarah Ann Ward 1863
- great-great-grandmother of David Ward 1882

it seems that you have a line of unmarried parents

unless Jane Ward 1842 was the child of a son of Sarah Ward 1786


ah perhaps not!

Sarah Ward Knaggs:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J9Q2-J44

Name: Sarah Ward
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 26 Feb 1815
Christening Place: KIRKBY MOORSIDE,YORK,ENGLAND
> Father's Name: Robert Ward
Mother's Name: Sarah
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C10840-1

but that is the only baptism that shows a father's name
the others in that batch show only mother Sarah, they are

Isaac 1818
(there is an Isaac 1841 census immediately below Robert on page 3 but he is 35 i.e. born c1802-1806)
Ann 1819
Ann 1821

gone in a bit of a circle here!

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVT6-2TT

Name: Robert Ward
Spouse's Name: Sarah Knaggs
Event Date: 04 Apr 1809
Event Place: Bilsdale Midcable,York,England
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M04872-1


Bilsdale Midcable is where Sarah Ward Knaggs and her husband David Knaggs and mother Sarah Ward, brother Robert Ward and niece(?) Jane Ward were living in 1851

so I would say that is Sarah Knaggs Ward, mother of Sarah Ward Knaggs !!

and I do suspect that Sarah Ward Knaggs is actually the mother of Jane Ward born a few months before Sarah Ward married David Knaggs, but the 1842 Jane Ward birth certificate is essential to finding the link between Jane and grandmother Sarah Knaggs Ward.

Anita ... maybe you would give your friend directions to this thread

She can see the info here for herself and let you know what she thinks and you can tell us :-)

I've finally figured it out

you said, and I had not paid attention:

'the person who married William Dale is ELIZABETH Ward and Hannah was her sister. Ann Ward was their mother and they were both illegitimate.'

Ann Ward (Ann Ward Kinshella after 1854) was born c1822 in the census ... she was the daughter of Sarah Knaggs Ward, grandmother of Jane Ward whose daughter Sarah Ann was the mother of David Ward ...

She is the Ann Ward, daughter of Sarah Ward, baptised in 1821

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JW2M-M46

Name: Ann Ward
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 31 Oct 1821
Christening Place: KIRKBY MOORSIDE,YORK,ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Sarah Ward
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C10840-1


She is the mother of both Jane Ward 1842 and Elizabeth Ward 1851:

Births Mar 1842
Ward Jane Helmsley 24 371

Births Sep 1851
Ward Elizabeth Helmsley 24 507

sisters, daughters of Ann Ward before her marriage:

Marriages Mar 1854
KINSHLA James Helmsley 9d
Ward Ann Helmsley 9d 538


So the two lines would go

Sarah Knaggs Ward 1786ish
Ann Ward Kinshella 1821
Jane Ward 1842 -- grandmother of David
Sarah Ann Ward Evers 1863
David Ward 1882

Sarah Knaggs Ward 1786ish
Ann Ward Kinshella 1821
Elizabeth Ward Dale 1852 -- great-aunt of David


and I would love to hear what your friend thinks of this!

The birth certificates for Jane Ward 1842 and Elizabeth Ward 1851 are the crucial bits of information needed.