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ArgyllGran
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23 Dec 2014 15:13 |
I'm hoping someone can help me, please, to find :
1. The birth of Thomas Herbert's second wife, Ann/Anne/Annie Dassett. 2. The maiden name and birth of his first wife, Elizabeth.
BACKGROUND:
Thomas was born 1842 in the Banbury area, Oxon. His third wife is in my tree, and I know all about her and her family. She was Sarah Claydon 1856 - 1902, born Bodicote, Oxon. They married in Bodicote in 1885. Here they are in 1891:
1891 England Census about Thomas Herbert Name: Thomas Herbert Age: 49 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Sarah Herbert Gender: Male Where born: Banbury, Oxfordshire, England Civil Parish: Doncaster Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England Occupation: Railway Engine Driver Registration district: Doncaster Sub registration district: Doncaster ED, institution, or vessel: 17 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 3864 Folio: 120 Page Number: 20 Household Members: Name Age Thomas Herbert 49 Sarah Herbert 34 John E Herbert 20 - son Edward B Herbert 16 - son Charles Herbert 54 - brother
(John and Edward are Thomas's sons by his first wife, Elizabeth.)
SECOND WIFE: In 1881, his wife was Ann(e):
1881 England Census about Thomas Herbert Name: Thomas Herbert Age: 39 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842 Relationship to Head: Head Spouse: Anne Herbert Gender: Male Where born: Banbury, Oxfordshire, England Civil Parish: Doncaster County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England Street address: 60 Catherine St Marital Status: Married Occupation: Railway Engine Driver Registration district: Doncaster Sub registration district: Doncaster ED, institution, or vessel: 18 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 4691 Folio: 108 Page Number: 10 Household Members: Name Age Thomas Herbert 39 Anne Herbert 40 - b. Birmingham Tom H.G. Herbert 14 John E.J. Herbert 10 Edward B.K. Herbert 6
Ann(e) died in Doncaster 1884, aged 42. She and Thomas married in 1877, and it was her second marriage.
Birmingham, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1937 about Thomas Herbert Name: Thomas Herbert Gender: Male Birth Year: abt 1842 Marriage Date: 18 Jun 1877 Marriage Age: 35 Marriage Place: Bordesley, Holy Trinity, Warwickshire, England Spouse: Ann Loosemore Spouse Gender: Female Spouse Marriage Age: 35 Father: John Herbert Spouse's Father: Edmund Dassett Reference Number: DRO 15 Archive Roll: 592/593
Marriages Dec 1866 (>99%) DASSETT Annie Pancras 1b 88 Loosemore George Pancras 1b 88
I think this may be her in 1861:
1861 England Census about Anne Dyset Name: Anne Dyset Age: 21 Estimated Birth Year: 1840 Relation: Servant Gender: Female Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England Civil Parish: Westminster St Margaret Ecclesiastical parish: St Margaret Town: Westminster County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Registration district: Westminster Sub-registration district: St Margaret ED, institution, or vessel: 3 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 184 Piece: 52 Folio: 58 Page Number: 35 Household Members: Name Age Thomas Appleton 62 William Appleton 20 Elizabeth Dyas 25 Anne Dyset 21
However, I can't find her in 1851, and I can't find her father Edmund Dassett in any year. And I can't find her birth.
Can anyone cast a fresh eye on this, please?
AFTERTHOUGHT: This might be some relation, as the baptism's in the same place as Annie's marriage to Thomas:
Birmingham, England, Baptisms, 1813-1912 about Elizabeth Dassett Name: Elizabeth Dassett Baptism Date: 18 May 1887 Baptism Place: Bordesley, Holy Trinity, Warwickshire, England Father: Edmund Dassett Mother: Charlotte Dassett
Or this???:
Warwickshire, England, Baptisms, 1813-1910 about Elizabeth Ann Dassett Name: Elizabeth Ann Dassett Parish: Warwick, St Nicholas Baptism Date: 26 Jul 1838 Father's Name: Edmund Dassett Mother's name: Charlotte Dassett Reference Number: DRO 15 Archive Roll: 589
But I can't see her or her parents on any census.
NOW THE FIRST WIFE:
At the 1871 census, Thomas was married to Elizabeth:
1871 England Census about Thomas Herbert Name: Thomas Herbert Age: 29 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Herbert Gender: Male Where born: Banbury, Oxfordshire, England Civil Parish: St Thomas Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas County/Island: Oxfordshire Country: England Registration district: Oxford Sub-registration district: Oxford ED, institution, or vessel: 20 Household schedule number: 29 Piece: 1441 Folio: 87 Page Number: 6 Household Members: Name Age Thomas Herbert 29 Elizabeth Herbert 27 Ada Maria Herbert 7 Tom Henry Gladstone Herbert 4 John Ernest Jas Herbert 9 Months
(I don't need any details of the children, thanks - it's just Elizabeth's maiden name and birth I'm trying to track down.)
She died in 1874, presumably in childbirth, because the youngest child (see 1881 above) was born same place, same quarter, same year.
Deaths Dec 1874 (>99%) HERBERT Elizabeth 31 Wandsworth 1d 410
The son: Births Dec 1874 (>99%) HERBERT Edward Bloxham K Wandsworth 1d 602
The 1871 census says she was born in Hardington, Berks, but there's no such place, as far as I can see. I wondered if it might be meant to be Headington, Bucks/Oxon, and the enumerator misheard. If so, then this might be her marriage to Thomas:
Marriages Sep 1862 (>99%) Herbert Thomas Headington 3a 757 Lay Elizabeth Headington 3a 757
However, I can't find her birth convincingly. If Berkshire is actually correct, then there's this possibility: Births Sep 1843 (>99%) LAY Elizabeth Sarah Witney 16 129
But the 1862 marriage might not be the right one, and her name not Lay at all.
Any ideas, anyone?
I have to log off for a few hours, but will come back later.
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Gee
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23 Dec 2014 15:19 |
Was she born in BHam?
England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name:Anne Dassett
Gender:Female
Baptism Date:27 Sep 1840
Baptism Place:Banbury,Oxford,England
Father: Edward Dassett
Mother: Charlotte
FHL Film Number:95208, 95209, 95210
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ArgyllGran
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23 Dec 2014 15:21 |
Oh, well done, Gins - that could welll be her! Thank you!
Edward as a variation of Edmund.
Or there's this one I've just found: Births Mar 1840 (>99%) Dassett Ann Birmingham 16 295
Is that the same one? born Birmingham, baptised Oxfordshire? Age a couple of years out from the census and death.
(I'm definitely away now - back later.)
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AnnCardiff
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23 Dec 2014 15:32 |
Name: Thomas Herbert Gender: Male Christening Date: 29 Mar 1842 Christening Place: BANBURY,OXFORD,ENGLAND Father's Name: John Herbert Mother's Name: Sophia Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02639-3 , System Origin: England-ODM , GS Film number: 95208, 95209, 95210
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AnnCardiff
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23 Dec 2014 15:33 |
Name: Thomas Herbert Event Type: Census Event Date: 1871 Gender: Male Age: 29 Relationship to Head of Household: Head Birthplace: Banbury, Oxfordshire Schedule Type: Household Registration District: Oxford Sub-District: Oxford Parish: St Thomas County: Oxfordshire Household Role Gender Age Birthplace Thomas Herbert Head M 29 Banbury, Oxfordshire Elizabeth Herbert Wife F 27 Hardington, Berkshire Ada Maria Herbert Daughter F 7 Banbury, Oxfordshire Tom Henry Gladstone Herbert Son M 4 Banbury, Oxfordshire John Ernest Jas Herbert Son M 0 Oxford, Oxfordshire
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AnnCardiff
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23 Dec 2014 15:35 |
Name: Thomas Herbert Age (Original): 39 Gender: Male Birth Year: 1842 Birthplace: Banbury, Oxfordshire, England Relationship to Head of Household: Head Marital Status: Married Occupation: Railway Engine Driver Address: 60 Catherine St Event Place: Doncaster, Yorkshire (West Riding), England Record Type: Household Affiliate Publication Number: RG11 Piece/Folio: 4691 / 108 Page Number: 10 Household Role Gender Age Birthplace Thomas Herbert Head M 39 Banbury, Oxfordshire, England Anne Herbert Wife F 40 Birmingham ?, Warwickshire, England Tom H G Herbert Son M 14 Banbury, Oxfordshire, England John E J Herbert Son M 10 St Thomass, Oxfordshire, England Edward B K Herbert Son M 6 Battersea, Surrey, England GS Film number: 1342135
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AnnCardiff
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23 Dec 2014 15:37 |
Name: Thomas Herbert Event Type: Marriage Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun Registration Year: 1877 Registration District: Aston County: Warwickshire Event Place: Aston, Warwickshire, England Volume: 6D Page: 426A Line Number: 89 Thomas Herbert probably married one of the following people Name: Ann Loosemore
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ArgyllGran
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23 Dec 2014 18:12 |
I have all that, Ann - see OP - but many thanks for your interest and research effort.
In the absence of any more replies, it looks as if I'll have to leave Elizabeth (and maybe Ann) as a loose end - not directly in my tree, anyway. I do tend to wander along very distant twigs!
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Gee
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23 Dec 2014 19:12 |
Hi A
Have you checked out this one?
England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973
Name:Thomas Herbert
Gender:Male
Marriage Date:20 Aug 1865
Marriage Place: Saint Jude,Birmingham,Warwick,England
Spouse: Elizabeth Burton
FHL Film Number:918918
Unfortunately it's just a transcription and no record to look at. Who was Tho* father
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ArgyllGran
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23 Dec 2014 21:34 |
No, I hadn't looked at that one, Gins - I was concentrating on Oxfordshire and Berkshire for Elizabeth. The eldest child, Ada Maria was born 1863.
Births Jun 1863 (>99%) HERBERT Ada Maria Banbury 3a 662
Doesn't mean she couldn't have been born before they married, of course - or maybe Thomas managed to have yet another wife before Elizabeth! Or just another partner. However, on the whole, I feel that Elizabeth Burton probably isn't the one.
Thomas is unmarried in 1861: Name: Thomas Herbert Age: 20 Estimated Birth Year: 1841 Relation: Boarder Gender: Male Where born: Nerthop, Oxfordshire, England Civil Parish: Oxford St Thomas County/Island: Oxfordshire Country: England Registration district: Oxford Sub-registration district: Oxford ED, institution, or vessel: 15 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 89 Piece: 895 Folio: 102 Page Number: 15 Household Members: Name Age Harriet White 58 William White 16 Henry Barden 26 Thomas Herbert 20 - Railway Engine cleaner George Cox 66
The Headington marriage of 1862 still looks the most likely to me, both geographically and timewise. Just wish I could prove it without having to buy the cert for such a distant twig on the tree (via a couple of marriages).
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MaureeninNY
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23 Dec 2014 22:04 |
???? 1851 England Census about Elizabeth Lay Name: Elizabeth Lay Age: 10 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: Thomas Lay Mother's name: Eliza Lay Gender: Female Where born: Ardington, Berkshire, England Civil Parish: Oxford St Thomas Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul County/Island: Oxfordshire Country: England : Registration district: Oxford Sub-registration district: Oxford ED, institution, or vessel: 9e Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 58 Piece: 1728 Folio: 454 Page Number: 13 Household Members: Name Age Thomas Lay 44 Eliza Lay 14 James Lay 15 Elizabeth Lay 10 Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1728; Folio: 454; Page: 13;
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Gee
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24 Dec 2014 02:24 |
Marriages Sep 1862
Herbert Thomas Headington 3a 757 Lay Elizabeth Headington 3a 757
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1871 England Census
Name:Elizabeth Herbert
Age:27
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1844
Relation:Wife
Spouse's Name:Thomas Herbert
Gender:Female
Where born:Hardington, Berkshire, England
Civil Parish:St Thomas
Ecclesiastical parish:St Barnabas
County/Island:Oxfordshire
Registration district:Oxford
Sub-registration district:Oxford
ED, institution, or vessel:20 Household schedule number:29 Piece:1441 Folio:87 Page Number:6 Household Members:
Thomas Herbert 29 <<<Railway engine driver - Banbury Elizabeth Herbert 27 Ada Maria Herbert 7 Tom Henry Gladstone Herbert 4 John Ernest Jas Herbert
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Gee
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24 Dec 2014 07:49 |
Daughter Ada appears to marry Edward Britton in 1885 and then marries Stephen Spicer in 1898
Ontario, Canada, Deaths, 1869-1938 and Deaths Overseas, 1939-1947
Name:Ada Marie Spicer[Ada Marie Herbert]
Gender:Female
Birth Year:abt 1864
Birth Place:England
Age at Death:73
Death Date:18 Mar 1937
Death Place:Carleton, Ontario, Canada
Father: Thomas Herbert
Mother: Elizabeth Lay ------------------------------------
Ottawa, Canada, Beechwood Cemetery Registers, 1873-1990
Name:Ada Marie Spicer
Birth Date:abt 1864
Birth Location:England
Gender:Female
Death Date:18 Mar 1937
Age:73
Parent(s):Thomas and Elizabeth Herbert -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ottawa, Canada, Beechwood Cemetery Registers, 1873-1990
Name:Stephen Walter Spicer
Birth Date:abt 1857
Birth Location:England
Gender:Male
Death Date:12 Apr 1929
Age:72
Parent(s):Spicer -------------------------------------------------------
Ada's son
Canada, Soldiers of the First World War, 1914-1918
Name:Herbert Thos Britten
Residence:Ottawa, Ontario
Birth Date:29 Aug 1886
Birth Location:Blatchley, England
Relative:Mrs A M Spicer -------------------------------------------------------------
British Columbia, Canada, Death Index, 1872-1990
Name:Herbert Thomas Britten
Gender:Male
Birth Year:abt 1887
Death Age:66
Death Date:20 May 1953
Death Location:Vancouver
Registration Number:1953-09-005474
BCA Number:B13215
GSU Number:2032864
I can't remember if you have access to overseas records? If not I can email you them if you PM your email address
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Gee
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24 Dec 2014 09:13 |
Looks like Ann* was married before she married Thomas Herbert
London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name:George Loosemore <<Wheelwright
Spouse:Annie Dassett
Record Type:Marriage
Event Date:3 Oct 1866
Parish:Parish Chapel, St Pancras
Borough:Camden
Father Name: Robert Loosemore <<Gardener
Spouse Father: Edmund Dassett <<<Dead
Register Type:Parish Register ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Birmingham, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1937
Name: Ann Loosemore<<<<<<<<Widow [Ann Dassett]
Gender:Female
Birth Year:abt 1842
Marriage Date:18 Jun 1877
Marriage Age:35
Marriage Place: Bordesley, Holy Trinity, Warwickshire, England
Spouse:Thomas Herbert <<Engine Driver
Spouse Gender:Male
Spouse Marriage Age:35
Father: Edmund Dassett <<Chandler
Spouse's Father: John Herbert <<<Undertaker
Reference Number:DRO 15
Archive Roll:592/593
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Gee
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24 Dec 2014 09:18 |
Warwickshire, England, Baptisms, 1813-1910
Name:Elizabeth Ann Dassett
Parish:Warwick, St Nicholas
Baptism Date:26 Jul 1838
Father's Name: Edmund Dassett
Mother's name:Charlotte Dassett
Wonder if this is her and she dropped the first name
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°o.OOº°‘¨Claire in Wales¨‘°ºOO.o°
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24 Dec 2014 09:42 |
Record Image View Add alternate information Report issue NAME: Edmund Dassitt AGE: 35 BIRTH YEAR: abt 1813 RECEIVED DATE: 30 May 1848 PLACE OF ORIGIN: Burford, Oxen RECORD TYPE: Prisoner Register YEAR RANGE: 1847-1850 REFERENCE NUMBER:
This one was a cabinet maker so unlikely to be your man
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Gee
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24 Dec 2014 09:42 |
1851 England Census
Name:Edmund Dossett <<Chandler
Age:53
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1798
Relation:Son-in-law
Spouse's Name:Charlotte Dossett
Gender:Male
Where born:Little Compton, Gloucestershire, England
Civil Parish:Neithrop
Ecclesiastical parish:North Banbury
County/Island:Oxfordshire
Registration district:Banbury
Sub-registration district:Cropredy
ED, institution, or vessel:10c
Household schedule number:39 Piece:1734 Folio:500 Page Number:10
Household Members:
Hanna Walker 80 Ann Walker 45 Charlotte Dossett 47 Edmund Dossett 53 Ann Dossett 11 Elizabeth Dossett 8 -------------------------------------------------------
England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973
Name:Charlotte Walker
Gender:Female
Marriage Date:23 Feb 1832
Marriage Place:Banbury,Oxford,England
Spouse: Edmund Dassett
FHL Film Number:0990430 IT 2, 1696464 IT 4-5
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ArgyllGran
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24 Dec 2014 11:55 |
Gosh, what a lot you have found since I last logged on! I'm so very grateful, Gins and Maureen.
Re Elizabeth: Maureen - yes, Ardington will have been written as Hardington in the 1871 census. Perhaps the enumerator thought the informant was dropping their h's, and thought they would "correct" it! The 1851 you posted clinches it - born Ardington, living Oxfordshire. Having looked it up, I see that Ardington is very close to Wantage, so this is probably Elizabeth's birth:
Births Sep 1841 (>99%) Lay Elizabeth Wantage 6 247
Yes, Gins, I do have access to overseas records. When researching for other people, emigration is something I always look at, but somehow it hadn't crossed my mind for this bunch! I knew about Ada marrying Edward Britton/Britten, but hadn't progressed as far as her emigration or second marriage - so thank you! Good to have the confirmation (on Ada's death record) that her mother was Elizabeth Lay.
Re Ann/Anne/Annie: I did wonder about the 1838 birth of Elizabeth Ann Dasset, Gins. However, all the later records suggest her birth was 1840/1 - 1851 & 1861 censuses, and her death record. Also, both the censuses say she was born in Birmingham, in which case the birth I posted earlier looks like being the correct one - I'll post it again here:
Births Mar 1840 (>99%) Dassett Ann Birmingham 16 295
The 1851 census you posted will definitely be her.
I knew she was previously married to George Loosemore (see OP), but didn't have her father's occupation, as I'd only looked for the marriage on FreeBMD, and not Ancestry. So Edmund was alive in 1851, but dead by 1866, so this will be his death:
Deaths Jun 1858 (>99%) Dasset Edmund Banbury 3a 421
Loose ends tied! I'm very grateful to you both, and also AnnCardiff.
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Gee
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24 Dec 2014 12:17 |
I'm thinking Ann was born in Birmingham but baptised in Banbury (posted below your opening post)
I can't see the Das* family on the 1841? Found Hannah Wright in 1841 but she is not with her daughter Charlotte
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Gee
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24 Dec 2014 12:21 |
Got them!
Name:Ann Dossett
Age:1
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1840
Gender:Female
Civil Parish:Holy Cross
Hundred:Pershore (Upper Division)
County/Island:Worcestershire
Registration district:Pershore
Sub-registration district:Pershore
Piece:1206 Book:15 Folio:9 Page Number:9
Household Members:
Ann Dossett 1 Also Edmond 40yrs (Chandler) and Charlotte 35yrs
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