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ArgyllGran
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14 Aug 2014 21:38 |
Going back to your original question about the Douglas line, the marriage between Mary Douglas and James Chirnside, which Gins posted on page 1, will give you Mary's parents' names and when they married.
Then from her parents' marriage record, you can go back to the previous generation, and so on, until perhaps you'll be lucky enough to find the link with Tantallon Castle! If you don't find it, but are really obsessed, then once you get back before 1855, you can also search for siblings, in case the link is through one of them. For births before 1855 you can include mother's maiden name in the search, which makes it easier.
Although, to find the link, you'd have to go back to before 1699:
Tantallon Castle From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tantallon Castle is a semi-ruined mid-14th-century fortress, located 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) east of North Berwick, in East Lothian, Scotland. It sits atop a promontory opposite the Bass Rock, looking out onto the Firth of Forth. The last medieval curtain wall castle to be constructed in Scotland,[1] Tantallon comprises a single wall blocking off the headland, with the other three sides naturally protected by sea cliffs.
Tantallon was built in the mid 14th century by William Douglas, 1st Earl of Douglas. It was passed to his illegitimate son, George Douglas, later created Earl of Angus, and despite several sieges, it remained the property of his descendants for much of its history. It was besieged by King James IV in 1491, and again by his successor James V in 1528, when extensive damage was done. Tantallon saw action in the First Bishops' War in 1639, and again during Oliver Cromwell's invasion of Scotland in 1651, when it was once more severely damaged. It was sold by the Marquis of Douglas in 1699 to Hew Dalrymple, Lord North Berwick and the ruin is today in the care of Historic Scotland.
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ArgyllGran
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14 Aug 2014 21:13 |
No reason why John Currie Smart shouldn't be Katherine's son. She married in 1894, and the census was 1901.
The marriage record image would tell you if James had been married before, but there's no reason to think so from the 1901 census.
If you want to hunt for him in 1901, you'll have his age on the marriage record.
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Kelly
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14 Aug 2014 18:37 |
It states Katherine Smart is the head of the house and married.
I am wondering if the 5 year old boy john currie was from James smarts previous marriage , if there was one ?
Thanking you so much for your time
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Chris Ho :)
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14 Aug 2014 18:27 |
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SCOTLAND-GENWEB/1999-04/0923252790
(James and Mary mentioned on above)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NA19130701.2.11
(could above case relate?)
23 April 1913 - Evening Telegraph - Dundee, Angus, Scotland
Mary Douglas (21), Chirnside, Mrs Saunder's niece
(same case, but above name)
Chris :)
(not too familiar with Scotland, apologies if misleading!)
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Kelly
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14 Aug 2014 16:29 |
The marriage shows Catherine as Mary's mother no father listed :0
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ArgyllGran
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14 Aug 2014 15:55 |
If you look at that 1901 census on SP, credits will let you see the image, and you can see if she was widowed or not.
If she was, here are a couple of possible deaths of James (I would favour the first one). :
1900 SMART JAMES M 54 CANONGATE EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/03 0391
1901 SMART JAMES (Other surname BISSET) M 46 ST ANDREW (EDINBURGH) EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/02 0266
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ArgyllGran
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14 Aug 2014 15:45 |
I don't see Catherine/Katherine Chirnside as such in 1901. Looks like she married:-
1894 SMART JAMES CHIRNSIDE CATHERINE EDDLESTON /PEEBLES 760/00 0002
1901 Scotland Census about Katherine Smart Name: Katherine Smart Age: 32 Estimated birth year: abt 1869 Relationship: Head Gender: Female Where born: Gladsmuir, Haddingtonshire Registration Number: 702 Registration district: Aberlady Civil Parish: Aberlady County: East Lothian Address: Wynd (restaurant) ED: 1 Household schedule number: 30 LINE: 16 Roll: CSSCT1901_407 Household Members: Name Age Katherine Smart 32 John Currie Smart 5 Margaret Smart 4 James Smart 2 Flora Smart 11mo
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ArgyllGran
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14 Aug 2014 15:39 |
Rootgatherer has already posted 1881 & 1891 re Katherine's family. Here's 1901, with mistranscription of middle initial:
1901 Scotland Census about Mary B Chirnside Name: Mary B Chirnside Age: 9 Estimated birth year: abt 1892 Relationship: Grand-daur (Granddaughter) Gender: Female Where born: Gladsmuir, Haddingtonshire Registration Number: 702 Registration district: Aberlady Civil Parish: Aberlady County: East Lothian Address: Kierpindie Occupation: Scholar ED: 2 Household schedule number: 10a LINE: 24 Roll: CSSCT1901_407 Household Members: Name Age James Chirnside 61 Mary B Chirnside 53 David B Chirnside 33 James G Chirnside 26 Lizzie Chirnside 24 Mary B Chirnside 9
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ArgyllGran
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14 Aug 2014 15:33 |
There are three births, any of which could be Mary, but presumably it's the Gladsmuir one, which rootgatherer has already posted from another site. The ScotlandsPeople ( GROS) ref nos. are below.:
1891 CHIRNSIDE MARY DOUGALS F GLADSMUIR /EAST LOTHIAN 708/00 0046 1897 CHIRNSIDE MARY DOUGLAS F ST GEORGE EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/01 2332 1893 CHIRNSIDE MARY DUGLASS F CANONGATE EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/03 0855
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ArgyllGran
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14 Aug 2014 15:26 |
Re Alexander's mother, that will be Mary Lyle - ms (maiden surname) Benzie.
Maybe this marriage: 1886 LYLE ALEXANDER BENZIE MARY ANN ST GEORGE EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/01 0375
Again, some credits will let you view the image to see their parents' names.
Yes, Mary Chirnside would have been illegitimate.
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Kelly
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14 Aug 2014 13:03 |
I did that and the Groom: Alexander Lyles father was Alexander Lyle Game Keeper and Mother seems to be Mary Lyle the writing is difficult to read but it might be written underneath Mary Lyle - M F Benzie
The Bride: Mary Douglas Chirnside only has her mother Katherine Chrirnside Listed and the fact that Katherine is a domestic servant - House Maid
Could this mean that she is the illegitimate child that Root Gatherer had found ?
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ArgyllGran
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14 Aug 2014 11:35 |
This is the marriage of Mary Chirnside and Alexander Lyle.
If you buy credits on ScotlandsPeople you can view the image of the record, and see who their parents were. (Much cheaper than actually buying the marriage cert. You can also print the image.)
1914 LYLE ALEXANDER CHIRNSIDE MARY DOUGLAS EDDLESTON /PEEBLES 760/00 0001
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rootgatherer
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14 Aug 2014 09:24 |
So the two Mary Douglas Chirnsides found are first cousins. One is the daughter of George and his wife Alice and the other the illegitimate daughter of George's sister Katherine / Catherine. You need to buy the marriage certificate for your Mary Douglas Chirnside to know her parents.
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rootgatherer
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14 Aug 2014 09:18 |
1851
Name: Mary Douglas Age: 14 Estimated birth year: abt 1837 Relationship: Daughter Father: David Douglas Mother: Catherine Douglas Gender: Female Where born: Gladsmuir, east lothian Parish Number: 708 Civil Parish: Gladsmuir Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps: View related Ecclesiastical Parish Town: Redcoll County: East Lothian Address: Redcoll Occupation: Ag Lab ED: 6 Page: 7 Household schedule number: 23 LINE: 15 Roll: CSSCT1851_192 Household Members: Name Age David Douglas 47 Catherine Douglas 55 Mary Douglas 14 Elizabeth Douglas 10
1841
Name: Mary Douglas Age: 5 Estimated birth year: abt 1836 Gender: Female Where born: East Lothian, Scotland Civil Parish: Gladsmuir County: East Lothian Address: Redcoll Parish Number: 708 Household Members: Name Age David Douglas 35 Cathrine Douglas 37 Marrion Douglas 12 Mary Douglas 5 Elisabeth Douglas 1 Petter Redden 16
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rootgatherer
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14 Aug 2014 09:14 |
1881
Name: James Chirnside Age: 41 Estimated birth year: abt 1840 Relationship: Head Spouse's name : Mary Chirnside Gender: Male Where born: Gladsmuir, East Lothian Registration Number: 708 Registration district: Gladsmuir Civil Parish: Gladsmuir County: East Lothian Address: Boglehill Occupation: Mason ED: 5 Household schedule number: 69 LINE: 1 Roll: cssct1881_304 Household Members: Name Age James Chirnside 41 Mary Chirnside 43, b. Gladsmuir George Chirnside 17 David Chirnside 16 Catherine Chirnside 14 Andrew Chirnside 13 Flora Mc Leod Chirnside 11 James Chirnside 8 Elizabeth Chirnside 6
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rootgatherer
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14 Aug 2014 09:06 |
Name: Katherine Chirnside Gender: Female Birth Date: 9 Aug 1866 Birth Place: Gladsmuir,East Lothian,Scotland Father: James Chirnside Mother: Mary Douglas FHL Film Number: 6035516
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rootgatherer
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14 Aug 2014 08:52 |
You really need to get the marriage registration from Scotlandspeople to confirm her parents names and her age when she married.
There is this birth
Name: Mary-Douglas Chirnside Gender: Female Birth Date: 7 Jul 1891 Birth Place: Gladsmuir, Haddington, Scotland Mother: Catherine Chirnside FHL Film Number: 255158 Reference ID: v 708 p 16
.??
1891
Name: Katherine Chirnside Age: 24 Estimated birth year: abt 1867 Relationship: Daur (Daughter) Father's Name: James Chirnside Mother's name: Mary Chirnside Gender: Female Where born: Gladsmuir, Haddn Registration Number: 708 Registration district: Gladsmuir Civil Parish: Gladsmuir County: East Lothian Address: Harelaw Lane Kilus Cottage No 2 Occupation: Housemaid (Dome Servt Unemp Coyed) ED: 5 Household schedule number: 59 LINE: 3 Roll: CSSCT1891_372 Household Members: Name Age James Chirnside 51 Mary Chirnside 54 Katherine Chirnside 24 James Chirnside 18 Elizabeth Chirnside 15 James Chirnside 1 Grandson, b. Edinburgh
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Kelly
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14 Aug 2014 08:46 |
Do you think the first family is wrong from Midlothian and that the second family is more like it :)
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Kelly
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14 Aug 2014 08:44 |
It's like a big jigsaw puzzle with lots if bits , I just wish I had your expertise . It is frustrating . But thank you for your time :)
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Gee
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14 Aug 2014 08:34 |
Looks like Douglas came from the mothers side
Scotland, Select Marriages, 1561-1910
Name:James Chirnside
Gender:Male
Marriage Date:3 Jul 1863
Marriage Place:Gladsmuir,East Lothian,Scotland
Spouse: Mary Douglas
FHL Film Number:6035516
Edit: This family maybe related?
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