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Yes Jude I think you are correct. I suppose the child could also have been a girl! Sydney died from measles before he was 2 and Florence died in 1913 from spinal Tb aged 19.

Thanks Chris. James Arthur was invalided out of the army. The records say from a gunshot wound but in a letter to his sister (my grandmother) he complains of trench fever. He and his life (lives) are still a mystery to me. His grandchildren don't know anything either.

Thanks for all your help folks. Unless I find some secret family records somewhere I will just have to stay puzzled.

Jill

J A Wylie & Co (registered Dec 1906) Silversmiths & electroplaters, Holborn Viaduct, London EC

http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Makers/London-JA-JB.html

(came across above this morning, looking on google, not much help though!)

Chris :)


http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast

(not sure if any snippets NZ Newspapers)


Full Name James Arthur Bright
War World War I, 1914-1918
Serial No. 14060
First Known Rank Rifleman
Occupation before Enlistment Traveller
Next of Kin Mrs Sarah Bright (mother), 133 Great North Road, Auckland, New Zealand

http://muse.aucklandmuseum.com/databases/Cenotaph/72507.detail

(above from google)


http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22279066

Jill - slightly different tack on your threads so, no, no rules broken I would say! It's not easy to find missing children (before 1911) because mother's maiden name not recorded. Unless the children were all baptised - and of the eight you know seven were baptised (only Florence missing as far as I can tell) then the only way is to plump for certificates and, given the common names, I would say forget it!

I think you are probably correct that the missing child was either born between Reginald and Frances (1885 - 1888) or between Sidney in 1890 and Florence in 1895....or even after Lily Alice in 1896

I am guessing that Robert Alfred/James Wylie/James Arthur Bright was dodging creditors or something!

So I am afraid you're on a doomed course :-)

I have three of my grandfather's siblings missing...I actually bought three certificates and the strange thing was, not only were they NOT mine, they were all siblings!

Possibly, if the child died at birth, it would explain why no baptism. And as they moved around a bit, albeit within boroughs of London, then it's a "needle in a haystack" that you are looking for!

Jude

Hi Jude,

Sarah's family was in Lowestoft so maybe that accounts for the christenings. They were C of E and the Martins were RC - the parents and first 4 children were born in Dublin.
Sarah emigrated to NZ in 1915 without her husband. She returned in around 1921 but came back to NZ and died in 1947. Thanks

Jill

I believe that James Arthur Wylie on 1911 census is Robert Alfred b. 1881. I knew him as my uncle Bob in Auckland NZ. I don't know why he changed his name and why he had 2 names on his marriage cert - I have a copy. If he wanted to change his name I suspected he may have taken on a dead sibling's name. Hence my supposition that the mystery 9th child of Sarah and Robert could have been James Arthur Martin. Maybe it's stretching things a bit far. By the way Robert Alfred/James Arthur took the name Bright in NZ. Reginald John emigrated to NZ before 1911.

I hope I haven't broken the rules about one thread per query but I thought this was a bit different.

Thank you everyone for your input. Is there any other way of finding out when this mystery child was born?

Jill

Jill from your other thread....

Family story has it that Louie/se was not looking after Sylvia to grandmother Sarah's standards so the child was taken to live at Harberton Road. Good point about address on marriage certificate. The whole things smacks of kidnap to me. Robert/James may, according to yet another family rumour have had gambling debts. You would think a silversmith would have enough money to pay his own passage to wherever but his brother John footed the bill. I haven't found any definite births to apply for a cert. yet.

He didn't have a brother John....unless you mean Reginald John William....and what happened to Reginald after 1901.......

Jude

What I find strange is that the first two boys born Chelsea appear to have been baptised in Lowestoft?

And why was Robert alone in 1911 - was Sarah just visiting her son?

Jude

Thanks Chris - explains it!

Jude

patchem Report 10 Nov 2012 08:32

Is this Robert/James in 1911?
WYLIE, James Head Single M 30 1881 Silversmith Dealer London Chelsea
MARTIN, Sarah Mother Married31 years F 57 1854 Yorkshire Driffield
MARTIN, Florrie Sister Single F 17 1894 Dressmaker London Islington
MARTIN, Lily Sister Single F 15 1896 Dressmaker London Islington
RG number: RG14 Piece: 802 Reference: RG14PN802 RG78PN28 RD10 SD2 ED3 SN181
Registration District: Islington
Sub District: Upper Holloway Enumeration District: 3 Parish: Islington
Address: 93 Harberton Road Upper Holloway N
County: London

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1313950

(1911 from above looks to relate)

Chris :)

Can you post the 1911 census? got it.....
1911
Name: Sarah Martin
Age in 1911: 57
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation to Head: Mother
Gender: Female
Birth Place: York, York, England
Civil Parish: Islington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 93 Harberton Rd, Highgate, Upper Holloway N
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 31
Estimated Marriage Year: 1880
Registration district: Islington
Registration District Number: 10
Sub-registration district: Upper Holloway
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Piece: 802
Household Members:
Name Age
James Wylie 30
Sarah Martin 57
Florrie Martin 17
Lily Martin 15

So this suggests that first child was James Wylie born in Chelsea in 1881 - so was she married before Robert? NO SHE WASN'T IMAGE shows her to be a spinster

This is the marriage

Marriages Jun 1880 (>99%)
Carr Sarah Ann Holborn 1b 905 Scan available - click to view
MARTIN Robert Joseph Holborn 1b 905

1901
Name: Florence Martin
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1894
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Father: Robert Martin
Mother: Sarah Martin
Birth Place: Shoreditch, London, England
Civil Parish: Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Hoxton Old Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 276
Folio: 160
Page Number: 31
Household schedule number: 203
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Martin 48
Sarah Martin 47
Robert Martin 20
Leonard Martin 18
Melvina Martin 19
Reginald Martin 15
Frances Martin 12
Florence Martin 7
Lily Martin 5

1891
Name: Larah A Martin
[Sarah A Martin]
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert Martin
Gender: Female
Where born: Driffield, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Islington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Clement
Town: London City
County/Island: London
Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington South West
ED, institution, or vessel: 48
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 159
Folio: 102
Page Number: 35
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Martin 38
Larah A Martin 37
Robert Martin 10
Leonard Martin 9
Reginald Martin 1
Sidney Martin 9/12
Melvina Martin 7
Hrances Martin 8


Jude

Jill


you are very welcome

I can't find that child anywhere else

Hi Sylvia,

Yes I was hoping it was that one as dates seemed to fit but obviously the parents don't. I'll have to have a rethink. Thanks a lot for that.

Jill

freebmd showed a James Arthur Martin registered Holborn Dec 1892.

Is this the one you think might b Sarah's???


Ancestry has this baptism for a James Arthur Martin .................



London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about James Arthur Martin

Name: James Arthur Martin
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 23 Oct 1892
Father's Name: Luke Martin
Mother's name: Martha Martin
Parish or Poor Law Union: St John the Evangelist, Red Lion Square
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

from image:-

Born:- 30th September 1892
Address:- 1A Fisher Street
Father occupation:- Labourer



This child then seemed to die within the eyar



England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 about James Arthur Martin

Name: James Arthur Martin
Estimated birth year: abt 1892
Registration Year: 1893
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 1
Registration district: Islington
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 175

Sorry to be so vague. I should know the ropes by now! This birth says Holborn, London.

Thanks,

Jill

where???

Hello helpful people. In the 1911 census Sarah Ann Martin of Harberton Road states she has had 9 live births and 2 children have died. We were only aware of 8 children in this family. I have a long shot idea that the extra child might have been called James Arthur, born last quarter of 1892. Just conjecture as there was a 4 year gap between children (1890-1894). Is there a way of finding out who the parents were without going to the cost of sending for a perhaps incorrect birth cert?

This is maybe a long shot but thought I would give it a go. I have tried Genes and Family search but no parent's names and I no longer belong to Ancestry.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Jill