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Without wishing to encroach on Billy's thread, I just want to say thanks to Shirley but I don't think that census is my Ellen as she was born Hurst Green/Mitten not Bolton.
but have made a note of it .
Thanks anyway

complicated I know that's why I have been researching since before 2002

You could easily have checked.......rather than re-posting................AGAIN

Threads are NEVER removed except by the poster, unless GR remove them for rule infringements

In favour of your theory, Billy, is the fact that I can't see the birth of an Edith Mercer in Bury around either 1887-8 or 1879.

However, so far I can't see her as either Ellen or Edith in 1901 or 1911 assuming she was indeed unmarried then.

(Have to say, I still rather like the Howard/Mercer marriage, and 1911 census record, posted above - though of course I don't know what the father's name would be on that marriage cert.)

Brill.Thanks Argllgran, I thought those would have been removed after all these years
Thank you very much, I will get back on it straight away
:-D :-D :-D

Also:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/850161

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/850119

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/605173

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1061285

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1061288

Ellen Mercer or Edith Mercer being the same person as in the 1891 census married to Daniel Ingham in 1918

So this is connected to..............

www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/living_relatives/thread/1341636

Births Dec 1887
Mercer Ellen Bury 8c 499

So maybe she simply changed her name, deciding to call herself Edith rather than Ellen? Or maybe she was always called Edith, to avoid confusion with her mother Ellen? The other facts certainly seem to fit pretty well: she could have given her step-father's name for her father on her marriage cert, with the surname changed to Mercer rather than Holden to hide the fact that she was illegitimate (that certainly isn't uncommon!). The father's occupation on the cert matches JWH's occupation so that fits. And the fact that she was born in Bury also fits, as it explains why Edith & Daniel married there rather than in Oldham (usually a marriage was held at the bride's parish). If she was born in Dec 1887, then would have been aged 30 by the time of her marriage in 1818 - and it's quite feasible that a "30" could have been mistranscribed as a "39" when the details were copied into the register. And a birth in Dec 1887 ties in exactly with the age at death of Edith Ingham (Blackburn, Sep 1951 - aged 63) that Stan found on your previous thread.

This marriage?

Marriages Sep 1918 (>99%)
Ingham Daniel Mercer Bury 8c 990
Mercer Edith Ingham Bury 8c 990

What makes you think Edith is Ellen, Billy?

I don't understand what you mean by " her aged has been transcribed wrong putting a 9 instead of a 0".
Where do the 9 and 0 come from? In 1891 she's 3, and born c.1888.

Births Dec 1887 (>99%)
Mercer Ellen Bury 8c 499

well, I think that Ellen aged 3 Became Edith and married a Daniel Ingham in 1918 and her aged has been transcribed wrong putting a 9 instead of a 0 because if she was born in 1887 it ties in exactly with the age at death for edith ingham ( Blackburn, Sept 1951 - aged 63

Just a guess:

Marriages Dec 1909 (>99%)
HOWARD John Bury 8c 791
MERCER Ellen Bury 8c 791

1911 England Census about Ellen Howard
Name: Ellen Howard
Age in 1911: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Wool Fold, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Tottington
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 4 Pennington St Walshaw
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Calico Weaver
Registration district: Bury
Registration District Number: 462
Sub-registration district: Ramsbottom
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Piece: 23457
Household Members:
Name Age
John Howard 22
Ellen Howard 23
Sarah Jane Howard 1

This is going to get messy if we don't keep the two Ellens separate. There's no reason (so far) to think they're related.

Anything new re Mike's Ellen will be best kept on the thread he has posted the link to above.

Here's Billy's Ellen in 1891:


1891 England Census about Ellen Mercer
Name: Ellen Mercer
Age: 3
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John William Holden
Mother's name: Ellen Holden
Gender: Female
Where born: Bury, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Tottington Lower End
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Woolfall Heath
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:
14 Southern Terrace, Tottington Road
Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Tottington Lower End
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3129
Folio: 4
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
John William Holden 30
Ellen Holden 26
Ellen Mercer 3
Robert Holden 3/12



What do you mean when you say "that's when it starts to go funny", Billy?
What info are you trying to find?

Thanks all for the response , This is the first time I have looked for the holden family, I am finding it quiet confusing, It started with a John William Holding and his partner Ellen Mercer who had a Daughter also called Ellen Mercer ,Ellen Senior then married John William Holden but kept the name Mercer for her Daughter that's when it goes funny

Mike is there any connection to the Kay family?




1851 census

First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Kay Head Married Male 46 1805 Weaver Hand Loom Bolton, Lancashire
Betsy Kay Wife Married Female 43 1808 Weavers Wife Bolton, Lancashire
Nancy Kay Daughter Unmarried Female 22 1829 Piecer In Cotton Mill Bolton, Lancashire
Martha Kay Daughter Unmarried Female 18 1833 Piecer In Cotton Mill Bolton, Lancashire
William Kay Son Unmarried Male 15 1836 Piecer In Cotton Mill Bolton, Lancashire
Edmond Kay Son Unmarried Male 12 1839 Clogger Bolton, Lancashire
James Kay Son Unmarried Male 4 1847 - Bolton, Lancashire
Thomas Kay Grand Son - Male 0 1851 - Bolton, Lancashire
Ellen Holden Niece Unmarried Female 19 1832 Piecer In Cotton Mill Bolton, Lancashire
Print individual transcription View image Individual transcription
First name(s) Ellen
Last name Holden
Relationship to household head Niece
Marital condition Unmarried
Gender Female
Age 19
Birth year 1832
Occupation Piecer In Cotton Mill
Birth place (other) -
Birth place -
Birth town Bolton
Birth county Lancashire
House number -
House name -
Street Back Rothwell Street
Parish Great Bolton
City or borough Bolton
Town Bolton
County Lancashire
Country England
Ecclesiastical disctrict Emanuel
Parliamentary borough Bolton
Municipal ward Bradford Ward
Registration district Bolton
Enumeration district 1v
Series HO107
Piece number 2210
Folio 680
Page 45

Don't know if this is of any connection to your Holdens.
I have Roger Holden poisoned by his wife Mary in Hurst Green Lancashire in 1834

Am still looking to see what became of his daughter Ellen who aged 8 appears in 1841 census living at Aighton workhouse

My thread
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/434845

Does 'back on the trail' mean that there are previous threads about these people?

Best way would be to search trees Billy. Tha chances of a Holden seeing your post are rather slim.

looking for any person with a Holden tree from lancs as I have just discovered this name from the 1820s :-)