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Hello Cynthia
I have replied to all, I am very new to genes, I was very surprised by all the replies and help to find William Pope b 1816 Ashford Kent, it seem William was a popular name back then. My wife and I expect our first Grandson in June 2014 , I am not sure if he will be called William

Thanks to everyone for their help
Kind regards
Brian Pope

PS . Anymore help would be most grateful

????

Possible first marriage for William the blacksmith?

Westwell is about 4 miles north of Ashford:

England Marriages, 1538–1973 "

Name: William Pope
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Mary Apsley
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 13 Oct 1793
Event Place: Westwell, Kent, England
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I03786-5
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1473774
Reference ID: 33

Uncle John Pope the grocer who left William Pope the blacksmith property in his will dated 1817, died in 1817 aged 82 years:

1817 Dec 9 b . . . . . John, aged 82 yrs.

This might be his birth, together with that of his brother William, father to William the blacksmith....?

1732 May 21 c . . . . . William, son of William & Mary
1734 Jan 1 c . . . . . John, son of -do-.

Again, taken from the Ashford parish transcripts for' Pope'

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/01/ASH/01/00p.htm

These look like they might be the granddaughters mentioned in Mary Pope's will, in which case it looks like William the blacksmith was married to a Mary before he married Maria.

1795 Jul 12 c . . . . . Mary, dau. of William & Mary
1797 Nov 26 c . . . . . Margaret, dau. of -do-

Transcripts of two Ashford, Kent wills that mention William Pope blacksmith, who is probably the William husband of Maria, and parent of William Pope c1812 and John William Cooper Pope c1807:

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/01/ASH/04/01p.htm


Mary Pope, widow PRC17 - 104/138
1 July, 1807

to son William Pope of Ashford, blacksmith - silver mug<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

dau. Elizabeth King, wid., & two grandchildren Margaret & Mary Pope (daughters of William ) - all clothes, between them

to daughter Fanny Pope - all furniture

daughters Sarah, wife of David Truseller of Deptford, glazier, Mary Snow, widow, Elizabeth King, widow, Ann, wife of John Rogers of Ashford, baker, Fanny Pope, & son Richard Pope all monies, etc., between them

Executor : John Thomas Pacj, grocer & Charles Bradley, druggist, both of Ashford.

Witness : Henry Kennett and Charles P. Cowtan, clerk to R. G. Delasaux

Probate ; 8 May, 1809
bur. 30 March,. 1808


also:

John Pope, grocer PRC17 - 105/446

4 October, 1817

to be buried near first wife, in Ashford churchyard

to nephew William Pope of Ashford, blacksmith - messuage or tenement, previously in two dwellings, but now one, with forge, etc., in Ashford, previously occupied by William Batmanson and Frances Hayward, now John Pope, and all goods.

Executor. : William Pope

Witness : Richard Crittenden of Ashford, carrier. William Harrison of Ashford, ostler and J. Sparrow, land surveyor.

Probate : 23 November, 1818 to executor bur. 2 November, 1818


Interestingly, the first will mentions clothes left to Margaret & Mary Pope, grand children, daurs of William.

The William Pope who married Maria Cooper in 1901 was a widower. If it is the William and Maria who raised family at Ashford, then maybe the two girls are children by a previous marriage?

Also still speculating, but Ashford parish record transcripts have a William Pope baptised c1773:

1773 Jan 10 c . . . . . William, son of William & Mary<<<<<<<<<<<<<
1778 Jul 19 c . . . . . Frances, dau. of -do-.

( Frances may be the daur Fanny mentioned in the will of Mary Pope)
and a burial in 1828:

1829 Apl 15 b . . . . . William, 56 yrs.

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/01/ASH/01/00p.htm

This may be the death of William Pope husband of Mary, as we know from the will she was a widow by 1807:

1800 Sep 4 b . . . . . William

Hello Brian and welcome to the Community boards.




I'll let Brian know that he has replies to his query. :-)

Well done indeed, MarieCeleste :)

It wasn't difficult - those articles popped straight up in a newspaper search, but thanks Kucinta!

Tantalisingly, there's another article in the index for the 16 December 1834 edition of the Kentish Gazette

"JOHN and WILLIAM POPE, VETERINARY SURGEONS, HIGH STREET, ASHFORD, JOHN and WILLIAM POPE beg to return their sincere thanks to their Friends and the Public general, for the very ...."

But I can't find the actual article in the pages (It'll be there somewhere)

Thanks to MarieCeleste we know William had a brother named John William Cooper Pope who was a veterinary surgeon and shoeing smith, and was christened at Greenwich as the child of William and Maria Pope (borne out by census entries as well as baptism record). he had several children baptised at Ashford by two wives.

The William Pope whose 1812 baptism you found was born to a William and Maria Pope in Ashford, and according to the christening of his child Catherine in 1840 at Ashford, was a blacksmith, and according to the 1851 census, and the articles MarieCeleste found, was also a veterinary surgeon.

A William Pope, blacksmith and wife Maria had children christened at Ashford; so my surmise is that he was the father of both William and John William Cooper Pope, and the shoe smithing part of their activities was in effect, carrying on the family business.

I agree it is circumstantial, but I believe it stacks up reasonably well.

I think MarieCeleste should be congratulated on her find with those articles.

Presumably from the 1841 census:


William Pope 25 Ashford, West, Ashford
Frances Pope 25 Ashford, West, Ashford
Edwd Pope 4 Ashford, West, Ashford
Caroline Pope 1 Ashford, West, Ashford
Henry Pope 0 Ashford, West, Ashford

Name: William Pope
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1841
Gender: Male
Age: 25
Birthplace: Kent
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Ashford, West
Sub-District: Ashford
Parish: Ashford
County: Kent

So actually all we know is that he was born between 1812 and 1816 and he LIVED in Ashford.

It would be helpful if Brian could let us know where he obtained the year and town of birth.

The William Pope who married Maria Cooper in 1801 was a widower, she was a spinster:


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name: William Pope
Spouse Name: Maria Cooper
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 10 Aug 1801
Parish: St George the Martyr
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Register

The second article in the snip I posted showed J W C Pope as a Veterinary Surgeon Shoeing Smith, etc ..

So it seems to tie in nicely.

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/01/ASH/01/00p.htm

Has several baptisms for children of William Pope a blacksmith, and wife Maria

J W C Pope and William Pope are described as veterinary surgeons in census and in that article MarieCeleste found, but in the index above, both JWC and William are described as blacksmiths on the christening of some of their children eg:

1831 Apl 13 c . . . . . Charles Cooper P., son of John William Cooper P. vet. surgeon
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . & Frances

1832 Dec 28 c . . . . . John William Cooper P., son of J W , blacksmith & Frances

1834 Jan 15 c . . . . . Edwin Cooper P., son of J W C, blacksmith & Frances
1835 Jan 14 c . . . . . Kate, dau. of -do-. & 1835 Apl 30 b . . . .

1836 Feb 17 c . . . . . Francis Cooper P., son of J W C, blacksmith & Frances
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . & 1836 Jun 24 b

(looks like JWC's wife Frances was buried in 1836)

1836 Jan 19 b . . . . . Frances, 27 yrs.

1838 Aug 12 c . . . . . Maria, dau. of JWC, blacksmith & Tamzen


1839 Jan 6 c . . . . . Caroline, dau. of William, blacksmith & Frances

Am feeling that 1812 baptism for William in Ashford is looking more promising.

????

England Marriages, 1538–1973 "

Name: William Pope<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Maria Cooper<<<<<<<<
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 10 Aug 1801
Event Place: Saint George The Martyr,Southwark,Surrey,England
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M02244-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 307689
Reference ID:

Baptism???

Parents are William and Maria, like the 1812 Ashford baptism for a William Pope posted earlier by Beverley:



Name: John Willm. Cooper Pope
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 22 Jan 1807
Christening Place: ST ALPHAGE,GREENWICH,KENT,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Willm. Pope
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Maria
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C00632-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 254589, 254590, 363062
Reference ID:

Just to complicate things, that brother also married a Francis:

England Marriages, 1538–1973

Name: John William Cooper Pope
Spouse's Name: Frances Whitehead
Event Date: 27 Jun 1830
Event Place: Faversham, Kent, England

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I00785-1
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1786453
Reference ID: item 1 p 178

This article from the Kentish Gazette of 17 April 1849 shows he had a brother John William Cooper Pope:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/7040730

How do you know WHERE he was born?

1841 census simply says Kent, and, as has been pointed out earlier, age of over 15s was supposed to be rounded down to nearest 5 years:

Census 1841:

First name(s) WILLIAM
Last name POPE
Gender Male
Age 25
Birth year 1816
Birth county KENT
House Number -
House name -
Street NEW STREET
Parish or township ASHFORD

WILLIAM POPE Male 25 1816 KENT
FRANCES POPE Female 25 1816 KENT
EDWD POPE Male 4 1837 KENT
CAROLINE POPE Female 1 1840 KENT
HENRY POPE Male 0 1841 KENT
SUSANA DENIS Female 14 1827 KENT

and by 1851, Frances was a widow, so what was the evidence for William's birth location, as it isn't given in the census, other than being Kent :

Census 1851;

FRANCES POPE HEAD WIDOW Female 35 1816 WIDDOW OF A VETERINARY SURGEON SMEETH
EDWARD W POPE SON - Male 13 1838 SCHOLAR WYE
CAROLINE POPE DAUGHTER - Female 11 1840 SCHOLAR ASHFORD
HENRY D POPE SON - Male 8 1843 SCHOLAR ASHFORD
WILLIAM C POPE SON - Male 7 1844 SCHOLAR SMEETH
FANNY E POPE DAUGHTER - Female 4 1847 - SMEETH
ROBERT GRAY SERVANT UNMARRIED Male 30 1821 VETERINARY SURGEON PRINCES RISBOROUGH, BUCKINGHAMSHIRE

First name(s) FRANCES
Last name POPE
Relationship to head HEAD
Marital condition WIDOW
Gender Female
Age 35
Birth year 1816
Occupation WIDDOW OF A VETERINARY SURGEON
Birth town SMEETH
Birth county -
House number -
House name SMEETH
Street -
Village -
Parish SMEETH
Ecclesiastical disctrict -
City or borough -
Town -
County Kent
Parliamentary borough -
Municipal ward -
Registration district EAST ASHFORD
Enumeration district 5
Series HO107
Piece number 1622
Folio 178
Page 8

Looks like Frances may not have been William's first wife:

Kent, England, Extracted Parish Records

Text: Wm Pope of Ashford wid & Fran Andrews of St Mary North Cant sp, at St Mary N. 20 Mar 1837.

Book: Volume 36

Collection: Kent, Surrey, London: - Canterbury Marriage Licences, 1810-1837 (Marriage)