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22 Apr 2014 11:09 |
Thanks again for your help with this.....I've had a lot of information provided that matches up and makes sense with the 1901/1911 census info.
The thing I'm still struggling with at the moment is Margaret Spencer's (Maggie Agnes Jane Spencer) birth and parents. She is listed as born in Rotherhithe and then again as Londonderry.
There are definately some questions about her age on documents but as said she could have just lied, information varies putting her birth around 1869/1873/1876. The only one that duplicates is 1869.
There is also her father listed as Henry McNulty on the marriage cert and I haven't found anything linking them so far.
Thanks for looking Richard
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Astra
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14 Apr 2014 07:02 |
Hi Richard If I remember correctly she is only listed as visitor in the Country of birth column. It asks whether resident in England or visitor and someone has added Visitor. It appears to be in a different hand writing to the rest of the completed form. Maybe she was thinking of returning to Ireland after the death of her husband. The children are listed as hers and she states the number of years married etc. so I feel sure that this is her. Her age is completely wrong but she may have lied.
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13 Apr 2014 18:24 |
Thanks Astra, that's very interesting.....so maybe this is a different person in the household without mother and father present. If Margaret Williams is listed as a visitor from Londonderry could this mean that a family member or maybe an unrelated / coincidental person is looking after the household and the children at that time as her age does not match the 1901 census of Maggie Williams.
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Astra
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13 Apr 2014 07:10 |
Hi Richard Monthly Nurse would be her profession. It was a woman who went to look after new mothers for the first few weeks after giving birth. She may also have been called upon to lay out the dead.
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Unknown
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13 Apr 2014 03:53 |
Thanks again Astra & PricklyHolly, your info is starting to take shape.....
I have the marriage cert for Edward Williams and Maggie Agnes Jane Spencer registered in Londonderry on 09th Jan 1890. It does show his profession as 2nd Kings Rifles and hers as a Dressmaker. He was at Ebrington Barracks, Londonderry and she was at 49 Clooney Terrace, Londonderry. They are listed as 22 & 21 years of age ... The puzzling thing is their Father's names, Edward's is Edward Williams - Engineer and Margaret's is Henry McNulty - Labourer ? The witnesses are William McNulty and what looks like Lynne Doherty.
I can't find the Channel Islands census for John and the Dr Bernados info that you mentioned , it seems to match but wonder why he would be there in 1911 and not on the 1911 census with his mother and siblings? That census matches by names but not by Margaret's age. The other thing I don't understand on that one is that it has Monthly Nurse listed under her profession, would you think that means profession or treatment ?
Thanks Richard
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ErikaH
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11 Apr 2014 12:41 |
That info is on your other thread............
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Unknown
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11 Apr 2014 12:18 |
Thanks again Astra, I'm waiting on some documents on the Williams side that might confirm your info.
An yes Reggie, I'm going back to my confirmed beginnings again and will proceed with documentation only, what's the best way to obtain Irish birth/marriage/death certs.
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ErikaH
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11 Apr 2014 11:50 |
Don't rely on info in other trees unless they provide details of documentary backup for their 'facts'...or you check them yourself
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Astra
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11 Apr 2014 11:10 |
According to his Military Record which is on Find my past Edward's father was also Edward of 34 Prospect Place Rotherhithe. He also had a sister Ellen. There are no details of his marriage but he was discharged in 1896.
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Unknown
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11 Apr 2014 10:28 |
Thanks Astra & PricklyHolly,
The Londonderry route could be correct and maybe Edward was posted over there The 1911 census has Margaret married for 20 years, widowed and a visitor. The marriage dates of 1890 make sense in Londonderry as do the childrens ages. I suppose Edwards year of death would also help to match them up.
Info I'm getting from other members trees is that Edward's parents were Edward Williams 1836 and Ellen James 1836.
Thanks Richard
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PricklyHolly
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11 Apr 2014 10:23 |
Son John in 1911??
It's a Dr Barnado's Home....
1911 Channel Islands Census about John Williams Name:John Williams Age in 1911:13 Estimated birth year:abt 1898 Relation to Head:Inmate Of Home (Inmate) Gender:Male Birth Place:Shepperton, Middlesex, England Civil Parish:Grouville County/Island:Jersey Country:Channel Islands Occupation:School Registration district:Jersey Registration District Number:637 Sub-registration district:Grouville ED, institution, or vessel:1/1 Piece:34953
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PricklyHolly
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11 Apr 2014 10:00 |
Edwards death.....
??
England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 about Edward Williams Name:Edward Williams Estimated birth year:abt 1867 Date of Registration:Apr-May-Jun 1905 Age at Death:38 Registration district:Brentford Inferred County:Middlesex Volume:3a Page:49
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ErikaH
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11 Apr 2014 09:45 |
You probably have this.....................
England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription First Name PHYLLIS DOROTHY M Last Name WESTON Year 1985 Event Quarter 1 Month of Registration 2 Year Of Birth 1926 Birth Month 7 Birth Day 10 District HOUNSLOW County Middlesex Country England Volume 13 Page 1462 Record set England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
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ErikaH
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11 Apr 2014 09:40 |
Order it from......................
http://www.gro.gov.uk/GRO/content/certificates/default.asp
It will cost £9.25
Any previous marriage would surely have been for Weston.............she married him in her maiden name
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Unknown
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11 Apr 2014 09:34 |
Good point Reggie, My mistake...My mother told me her grandfather's name was William Thomas (builder) and on her birth cert John is listed as a coal porter.
You may be onto something about the wedding delay, Dorothy is always listed as Weston throughout rather than Williams but I know that she may have already been spoken for when she met John.
Thanks for that , I'll try and get a copy
Richard
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PricklyHolly
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11 Apr 2014 09:19 |
I am wondering about these baptism's.........although Edwards occupation seems to vary!
Henry's place of birth on the 1901 census is Richmond Surrey.
Surrey, England, Baptisms, 1813-1912 about Henry Williams Name:Henry Williams Birth Date:29 Apr 1892 Baptism Date:10 Jul 1892 Archive Provided Parish:Richmond, St John Parish as it Appears:Richmond, St John the Divine Father:Edward Williams (Engineer) 15 St Johns Place Mother:Maggie Williams
"Marcha" M was born Shepperton
London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Martha May Williams Name:Martha May Williams Record Type:Baptism Baptism Date:2 Aug 1895 Father's Name:Edward Williams (Blacksmith) The Rope Walk Shepperton Mother's name:Maggie Agnes Jane Williams Parish or Poor Law Union:Shepperton County:Surrey
Edward was born in Rotherhithe
London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Edward Williams Name:Edward Williams Record Type:Baptism Baptism Date:5 Nov 1890 Father's Name:Edward Williams (Soldier) 4 Prospect Place Rotherhithe Mother's name:Marie Agnes Jane Williams Parish or Poor Law Union: Rotherhithe Christ Church Borough:Southwark Register Type:Parish Registers
There is an Edward at an Army Barracks in 1891.......
The problem is....it states he is Single!
1891 England Census about Edward Williams Name:Edward Williams Age:24 Estimated birth year:abt 1867 Relation:Private Gender:Male Where born:Rotherhithe, Surrey, England Civil Parish:St Thomas Ecclesiastical parish:St Thomas County/Island:Hampshire Country:England Registration district:Winchester Sub-registration district:Winchester ED, institution, or vessel:The Barracks
Edward Williams 24 Private.
Perhaps Edward and Maggie were not married?
Edit: I see Astra has added the marriage which took place in 1890.
I am struggling to find Maggie and son Edward on the 1891 census.
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ErikaH
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11 Apr 2014 09:01 |
How could a grandfather be named on a birth cert?
Was the late marriage due to a previous one having still been in force when they had their children?
You need a copy of the marriage cert.......................
Marriages Sep 1959 (>99%)
WESTON John T WILLIAMS Middlesex S. 5f 203 WILLIAMS Dorothy E WESTON Middlesex S. 5f 203
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Unknown
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11 Apr 2014 08:46 |
Thanks Astra and Reggie for the replies on Weston/Spencer....
At first I looked at Margaret Spencer of Londonderry because it was suggested in the family that there was an Irish link on my grandmothers side although I can't be certain that is correct. Dorothy Eleanor's info on her birth certificate is in Ashford, Middlesex on Aug 10th 1900 with her father as Edward Williams (general labourer) and Margaret Williams formerly Spencer as her mother also living in Ashford. Dorothy is also appearing with this information on other trees with Edward Williams coming from Rotherhithe. Dorothy did have a sister called May but again I'm not certain if it was her first given name.
As for John Thomas Weston and Dorothy Eleanor Williams wedding, it appears that they did not marry until years after their children were born, 1959 I think. They can be found in 1926 living at 69 Holly Road , Twickenham and then from the 1930's to 1980's at 53 Longford Road, Twickenham. His father William Thomas is listed as a builder on my mother's (Dorothy Ellen Weston) birth certificate in August 1936 with her birthplace being 30 Twickenham Road, Isleworth.
Thanks again for your help Richard
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ErikaH
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11 Apr 2014 08:11 |
How old was John when he married?
Can't look for him till we know...............plus, some idea of his birthplace
What was his father's occupation?
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Astra
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11 Apr 2014 06:33 |
Dorothy with her family in 1901
Name:: Dorothy E Williams Age: 8 Months Estimated birth year: abt 1900 Relation to Head: Daughter Gender: Female Father: Edward Williams Mother: Maggie Williams Birth Place: Ashford, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Ashford Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Town: Ashford County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Piece: 1171 Folio: 67 Page Number: 14 Household schedule number: 90 Household Members: Name Age Edward Williams 34 Maggie Williams 32 Edward Williams 11 Henry Williams 9 Marcha M Williams 6 John E Williams 4 Dorothy E Williams 8 Months
. 1911 and the children are with a Margaret Williams but I am not sure she is the same Margaret as their mother. Her birthplace is Londonderry.. It's very confusing because the children are noted as hers and she states married 20 years 12 children born 6 living 6 died before it has been crossed out.
Name: Dorothy Williams Age in 1911: 10 Estimated birth year: abt 1901 Relation to Head: Daughter Gender: Female Birth Place: Sunbury Civil Parish: Twickenham County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: 22 Hamilton Road, Twickenham Marital Status: Single Registration district: Brentford Registration District Number: 128 Sub-registration district: Twickenham ED, institution, or vessel: 18 Household schedule number: 153 Piece: 6851 Household Members: Name Age Margaret Williams 35 Edward Williams 20 May Williams 17 Dorothy Williams 10 Florence Williams 8
This could be their marriage in Ireland
Name: Maggie Agnes Jane Spenser Event Type: Marriage Event Date: Jan - Mar 1890 Event Place: Londonderry, Ireland Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1890 Registration District: Londonderry Age: Birth Year (Estimated): Mother's Maiden Name: Volume Number: 2 Page Number: 195 GS Film number: 101256 Digital Folder Number: 004179388 Image Number: 00195
Name: Edward Williams Event Type: Marriage Event Date: Jan - Mar 1890 Event Place: Londonderry, Ireland Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1890 Registration District: Londonderry Age: Birth Year (Estimated): Mother's Maiden Name: Volume Number: 2 Page Number: 195 GS Film number: 101256 Digital Folder Number: 004179388 Image Number: 00198
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