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Alatck
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10 Feb 2014 21:28 |
Crikey mgnv, you've been busy. You've given me enough to write a novel here. Thanks! :-)
I must confess I've also found some of this info which I've already written down, including that of the illegitimate entry - I did wonder about that one. All the stuff that I hadn't come across and you've kindly provided will be copied and pasted into a folder I've opened on my desktop. I've already ordered the marriage certificate for Phyllis and Thomas in 1932. Sadly I don't know when Phyllis died but I'm assuming that it was in Bolton. Cheers again.
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mgnv
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10 Feb 2014 18:07 |
Do you know when/where Phyllis died?
There are 2 Phyllis Knowles deaths in Bolton RD:
I've set out the first transcription in FreeBMD format: Surname First name(s) DoB District Vol Page Deaths Mar 1978 (-) KNOWLES Phyllis 28SE1910 Bolton 38 0346
First Name:PHYLLIS Last Name:KNOWLES Year:2000 Event Quarter:2 Month of Registration:6 Year Of Birth:1912 Birth Month:10 Birth Day:3 District:BOLTON County:Lancashire Country:England District Number:0021D Entry Number:031 Record set:England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 DOR:600
I think the 2000 death might relate to this Phyllis:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1938 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference KNOWLES Thomas M SIMMS Phyllis Bolton, Victoria Wesleyan Chapel, Grecian Street Bolton 148/6/45
Births Dec 1912 (>99%) Simms Phyllis Clark Bolton 8c 702
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mgnv
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10 Feb 2014 17:16 |
I think this is our Phyllis:
1911 England Census Transcription Occupation:PAPER SORTER Address:6 PETER STREET BOLTON Parish:BOLTON County:Lancashire Country:ENGLAND Ecclesiastical District:- Registration District:BOLTON Registration District Number:461 Registration Sub-District: Little Bolton SubDistrict Number:7 Enumeration District:7 Census Reference:RG14PN23391 RG78PN1365 RD461 SD7 ED7 SN352
JOHN S WHITE 1864 47 MANCHESTER HEAD M Baker of Bread MARY E E WHITE 1866 45 MANCHESTER WIFE M WALTER WHITE 1895 16 HORWICH SON S Grinder FREDERICK WHITE 1902 9 BOLTON SON School GEORGE WHITE 1905 6 BOLTON SON School MARGARET ASHWORTH 1893 18 BOLTON BOARDER S Paper Sorter PHYLLIS ASHWORTH 1911 0[6m] BOLTON DAUGHTER SARAH E WHITE 1897 14 BOLTON DAUGHTER S Mill Hand, Doffer [marr 26y; 10 live births; 8 still living]
I see no obvious connection between Margaret and her landlords:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1884 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference WHITE John S NORRIS Eugeina N Manchester, St. Philip Manchester 93/5/346
You can go to: https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND and search the collection: England, Lancashire, Cheshire, Yorkshire, Parish Registers, 1603-1910 and find:
John Samuel White England, Lancashire, Cheshire, Yorkshire, Parish Registers, 1603-1910 marriage: 20 October 1884 St Philip, Manchester, Lancashire, England father: William White spouse: Eugeina Or Eugenie Norris other: John Norris https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FM1L-5K4
There's an image link at right on the above URL. In spite of the title of that collection, it's really just the diocese of Manchester (which includes Bolton). Not all the images are indexed, so sometimes you have to "Browse the images". In this case, if you're looking at marriages, note the last element of the LancsBMD ref is the entry # (346 here). At 2 entries per page, that's 173 images, plus the first page has no entries, so one would try image 174 of 253 - well, that image has entries 369/370, so we need image 176 of 253 - presumably a couple of earlier images were duplicated, or maybe retaken with different camera settings.
Well the 1911 looks like phyllis is illegitimate, so I went to the FreeBMD hit
Births Sep 1910 (>99%) ASHWORTH Phyllis Bolton 8c 343
and clicked on the page # - maybe our Phyl is also indexed as Phyllis Smith or whatever. She's not, but I did see:
Births Sep 1910 (>99%) ASHWORTH James Bolton 8c 343
and I wondered if this was a twin bro - but there's no death thru 1911q2 (census day was 2/4/1911). It seems not - there were 3 James's rego'ed in 1910q1 (on pp 321, 341, 343). There are 3 suitable James's on 1911, all with 2 parents, so it just looks like a coincidence:
Census Reference:RG14PN23258 RG78PN1359 RD461 SD1 ED7 SN75 Census Reference:RG14PN23264 RG78PN1359 RD461 SD1 ED13 SN31 Census Reference:RG14PN23268 RG78PN1359 RD461 SD1 ED17 SN291
One can search at: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/ for rg14/23258 or whatever, and see: Registration Sub-District: Farnworth Civil Parish, Township or Place: Farnworth (part) Etc
All 3 James's were rego'ed in the Farnworth subdistrict, and since Phyllis was on the same page as one of them, she was too, in spite of appearing in Little Bolton 6m later. NB Bolton RD used 16 difft subdistricts thru 1911, but only 8 were still in use in 1911. LancsBMD have transcribed no births post-1908. They have completed 6 of the 8 disused subdistricts. The oldest untranscribed births are in 1872, but the transcribers are fairly active in Bolton, and update stuff abt every 4m. It's also worth pointing out LancsBMD index by year of birth, not quarter of registration - consequently a birth in late Dec 1899, say, is liable to appear in FreeBMD's GRO index as rego'ed in 1900q1.
If you really want to see who's on the 1911 with James, go to: http://www.1911census.co.uk/ Take the full person search link, then show advanced fields. Enter the census ref RG14PN23258 SN75 or whatever (For the 3 James's, if 2 surnames appear, add boarder or nephew to the search to sort them out)
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mgnv
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10 Feb 2014 02:11 |
Ali - buy the marr cert before ordering other certs. I think your Phyllis was the illegitimate d/o Margaret Ashworth, so I expect the father slot will be blank. You never know, though - my illegitimate g- gran named her father on her m.cert.
One can buy BMD certs thru the local office that now holds the registers - Bolton here - or one can buy images of the copies the local office made, and sent to the GRO.
A FreeBMD lookup gets you all the info you need to place an online order with the GRO via: http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page Marriages Sep 1932 (>99%) Knowles Thomas Ashworth Bolton 8c 899
One normally clicks on the page # to see all names referring this vol & page, which naturall includes the spouse as well as other couples who appear on the same page:
Marriages Sep 1932 (>99%) Ashworth Phyllis Knowles Bolton 8c 899 Derbyshire Harold W Kershaw Bolton 8c 899 Kershaw Minnie Derbyshire Bolton 8c 899 Knowles Thomas Ashworth Bolton 8c 899
The following Phyllis Ashworth's were rego'ed in Bolton pre-1917:
Births Mar 1907 (>99%) ASHWORTH Phyllis Bolton 8c 406
Births Sep 1910 (>99%) ASHWORTH Phyllis Bolton 8c 343
Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page Births Sep 1914 (>99%) Ashworth Phyllis Stevenson Bolton 8c 698
One has 6 wks to rego a birth, so an eatly Sept 1916 birth could be rego'ed in the Dec quarter of 1916, and she'ld still be 16 in time for the marr (the min legal age after the late 1920s).
Mel has posted the 1907 Phyl - there's also: Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1930 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference ASHWORTH Phyllis BAILEY William Bolton, Congregational Church, Blackburn Road Bolton 142/5/66
and a lan-opc entry that confirms this marr is for the 1907 Phyl.
I think the following all relate to the 1914 Phyllis - but what do I know.
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1907 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference ASHWORTH John R STEVENSON Alice J Little Lever, St Mathew Bolton 43/2/468
1911 England Census Transcription Address:1 SPRING ST LITTLE LEVER Parish:LITTLE LEVER County:Lancashire Country:ENGLAND Ecclesiastical District:- Registration District:BOLTON Registration District Number:461 Registration Sub-District: Farnworth SubDistrict Number:1 Enumeration District:26 Census Reference:RG14PN23277 RG78PN1359 RD461 SD1 ED26 SN164
JOHN RICHARD ASHWORTH 1881 30 LITTLE LEVER LANCS HEAD M Clerk at Colliery ALICE JANE ASHWORTH 1881 30 LITTLE LEVER LANCS WIFE M
I've set out my transcription in FreeBMD format: Surname First name(s) DoB District Vol Page Deaths Mar 1972 (-) ASHWORTH Phyllis 21Jy1914 Farnworth 10c 403
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Alatck
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9 Feb 2014 17:13 |
Hi Mel Fairy Godmother, thanks for that, I've made a note.
I'm gonna be very busy :-D
But time for me to shut down for now I'm afraid; I'm back at work tomorrow so need to get sorted for that.
Thanks again to everyone who's helped so far and I hope everyone on GR had a lovely weekend and you all have a good week. Happy hunting!
Regards, Ali.
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Mel Fairy Godmother
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9 Feb 2014 16:36 |
England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915 about James Edwin Ashworth Name: James Edwin Ashworth Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1904 Registration District: Bolton Inferred County: Lancashire Volume Number: 8c Page Number: 706 Records on Page: Name James Edwin Ashworth Rhoda Banks
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Mel Fairy Godmother
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9 Feb 2014 16:23 |
England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about Iris Ashworth Name: Iris Ashworth Mother's Maiden Name: Banks Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1914 Registration District: Bolton Inferred County: Lancashire Volume: 8c Page: 956
Another poss but different area but they may have moved.
England & Wales, Birth Index, 1916-2005 about Herbert Ashworth Name: Herbert Ashworth Mother's Maiden Surname: Banks************************* Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1916 Registration District: Haslingden Inferred County: Lancashire Volume Number: 8e Page Number: 188
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Mel Fairy Godmother
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9 Feb 2014 16:20 |
Oh dear!
England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 about James E Ashworth Name: James E Ashworth Estimated Birth Year: abt 1911 Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1912 Age at Death: 1***************************************************** Registration District: Bolton Inferred County: Lancashire Volume: 8c Page: 418
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Mel Fairy Godmother
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9 Feb 2014 16:16 |
Hi Ali,
Nice to see you got back to us.
Another possibility for another sibling to Phylis after the 1911 census.
England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about James E Ashworth Name: James E Ashworth Mother's Maiden Name: Banks***************************** Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1911 Registration District: Bolton Inferred County: Lancashire Volume: 8c Page: 722
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Alatck
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9 Feb 2014 15:19 |
Hi again folks. The web page froze while I was in the middle of replying to you all. Soz! Now where was I? Christina, Joseph, Mel - being a 'newbie' I don't want to jump the gun but I think - and it's a big think - that Phyllis's mother's maiden name may have been either Banks or Stevenson; I have access to another GR user's tree who's researching a different branch of the family and she has both surnames in her names list, so I need to know I'm on the right person before I order certificates. But thanks to you all for your input - and the lovely welcome.
One thing I have realised very quickly is that this can be extremely addictive. I reckon I'm going to have to change my broadband provision to unlimited judging from all the time I'm spending on this. Thank heaven for you lovely helpers! :-D
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Cynthia
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8 Feb 2014 13:07 |
I'll let Ali know that she has replies to her query. :-)
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Mel Fairy Godmother
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8 Feb 2014 10:49 |
1891 England Census about Rhoda Banks Name: Rhoda Banks Age: 7 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: James Banks Mother's Name: Catherine Banks Gender: Female Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England Civil Parish: Little Bolton Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Town: Bolton County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street Address: Registration District: Bolton Sub-registration District: Little Bolton ED, institution, or vessel: 18 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 3116 Folio: 35 Page Number: 10 Household Members: Name Age James Banks 51 1840 Bolton Lancs COTTON SPINNER Catherine Banks 52 1839 Bolton, Lancashire Ethel Banks 19 Bertha Banks 17 Emma Banks 15 James Banks 13 Rhoda Banks 7
1901 England Census about Rhoda Banks Name: Rhoda Banks**************single**** Age: 17 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884 Relation to Head: Boarder************************* Gender: Female Birth Place: Bolton, Lancashire, England Civil Parish: Bolton County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street Address: 12 Tennis St.
Occupation: COTTON CARD LOOM HAND
Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Eli Yates 25 Emma Yates 25 Rhoda Yates 1 Rhoda Banks 17
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Joseph
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7 Feb 2014 22:14 |
This is a possibility, but you need some certificates to be sure.
Baptism: 5 Mar 1907 Blackburn Road Congregational Church, Bolton Phyllis Ashworth - [Child] of James Edwin Ashworth & Rhoda Abode: 22 Tennis Street Occupation: Labourer
1911 at 22 Tennis St Halliwell Bolton ASHWORTH, James Edwin Head Married M 36 1875 Labourer Bolton ASHWORTH, Rhoda Wife Married 6 years F 27 1884 Bolton ASHWORTH, Elsie Daughter F 6 1905 Bolton ***ASHWORTH, Phyllis Daughter F 4 1907 Bolton ASHWORTH, Rhoda Daughter F 2 1909 Bolton ASHWORTH, Caleb Father Widower M 70 1841 Pensioner Police Force Bolton
Marriages Jun 1904 Ashworth James Edwin Bolton 8c 706 Banks Rhoda Bolton 8c 706
Deaths Jun 1912 Ashworth James E 37 Bolton 8c 440
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Christina(Lancashire)
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7 Feb 2014 21:43 |
Hi Ali and welcome to the boards.
Do you have Phyllis' father's name and occupation from her marriage certificate?
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Mike *
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7 Feb 2014 21:35 |
Put these free websites in your favourites.
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
**** Welcome to the boards by the way.
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Mike *
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7 Feb 2014 21:35 |
PM sent to you inbox with possible births of other children.
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Mike *
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7 Feb 2014 21:30 |
Is this your dad ?
Births Dec 1939 Knowles Thomas R- ( Mother Ashworth) Bolton 8c 674
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Mike *
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7 Feb 2014 21:25 |
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1932
KNOWLES Thomas- ASHWORTH Phyllis. Bolton Register Office or Registrar Attended Bolton RO/228/82
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Alatck
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7 Feb 2014 21:17 |
Hi everyone
My name's Ali. I'm a new member and I would truly appreciate some help; I'm trying to trace my paternal great grandmother's maiden name. Her daughter was Phyllis Ashworth, who married my grandfather Thomas Knowles - he was a mechanic and I was told he owned a garage. Thomas and Phyllis lived in Halliwell, Bolton, at 3 Beatrice Road, where my dad Thomas Richard was born. I don't recall meeting Phyllis and have a very vague memory of seeing my grandfather once. Dad also had about 5 sisters but I've never met them so I'd be doubly chuffed if I could pin the sisters down too! Much thanks in advance. :-D
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