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Hi there,

First, thank you so much for your input and opinions. They are greatly appreciated.

With this, I need to state, I am not trying to bend any facts to fit my tree to the will here - I am merely speculating to find an accurate truth. I would always rather see a fruitful family tree than a fabricated one.

With this, the logic behind Ann Saur and Miriam ... remember, when I started this post I didn't know about the William Garbutt/Miriam Blackett marriage! Also, this is the reason why Hannah was not mentioned until this thread. However, there is this possible marriage:

Hannah Garbut
England Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 21 May 1744 Egton,York,England
spouse: John Lynas

I had wondered if Miriam could be a corruption of MairANN or something similiar. I also thought this may be the case at this time with difficulties in translation from Latin records etc. Anyway, it is obvious now that there were at LEAST TWO William Garbutts living in Egton/Glaidale/Danby at this time, and although I suspect they were related as cousins or some other relatation, I sadly can't find a link at present.

With this, Egton/Glaisdale/Danby are all adjoining parishes. I have example of another Egton family in the 1780s, with their children being christened between Egton and Danby (i.e. one in one church one year, another in the next etc)

Anyway, I really don't know where is to go next from here. I did an IGI search for a baptism of Richard Garbutt in Yorkshire from 1720-1750 ... 'my' ancestor Richard married in Egton in 1755. These are the baptisms:

Richard Garbutt
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 2 June 1741 ORMESBY,YORK,ENGLAND
father: Richard Garbutt

Richard Garbutt
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 1 May 1742 , HELMSLEY, YORK, ENGLAND
father: John Garbutt

Richard Garbutt
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
birth: 25 May 1725
christening: 30 May 1725 ELLERBURNE,YORK,ENGLAND
mother: Anne Garbutt

Richard Garbutt
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 10 July 1743 STOKESLEY,YORK,ENGLAND
father: Richard Garbutt

Richard Garbutt
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 1 May 1742 , HELMSLEY, YORK, ENGLAND
residence: Helmsley, Yorkshire, England
father: John Garbutt

Richard Garbutt
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 6 January 1729 HAWNBY,YORK,ENGLAND
father: Richard Garbutt

Richard Garbutt
England Marriages, 1538–1973
birth: 1746
marriage: 30 June 1777 York, England
spouse: Jane Jackson

Richard Garbutt
England Marriages, 1538–1973
birth: 1738
marriage: 27 December 1765 York, England
spouse: Ann Hugill

Richard Garbutt
England Marriages, 1538–1973
birth: 1758
marriage: 17 September 1779 York, England
spouse: Eliz. Peacock

Richard Garbutt
England Marriages, 1538–1973
birth: 1734
marriage: 15 September 1784 Pickering, York, England
spouse: Martha Wilson

Richard Garbut
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 28 November 1735 EAST HARLSEY,YORK,ENGLAND
father: John Garbut
mother: Elizabeth

Richd. Garbutt
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 26 December 1734 EGTON,YORK,ENGLAND
father: Will Garbutt

So I should look for ANOTHER William Gabutt with children William/Sarah/Richard?

Thank you again!

I have been through the IGI to find the spelings and dates for Garbutt variations in Egton around the time

All with father William

Will Garbutt 21 Jan 1728
Roger Garbutt 6 Oct 1729
Josiph Garbut 5 Aug 1732
Will Gorbitt 18 Feb 1732 miller of Egton Bridge
Ann Garbut 5 Dec 1732
Richd.Garbutt 26 Dec 1734 miller of Egton Bridge
John Garbut 11 Ap 1736 died 5 May 1838 miller of Egton Bridge
Jonathan Garbut 26 March 1738 miller of Egton Bridge
Sarah Garbut 2 Aug 1740 miller of Egton Bridge
Rachel Garbutt 11 Oct 1742 miller of Egton Bridge
Myram Garbut 21 Feb 1745 miller of Egton Bridge

The IGI does not give the occupations, but I have added miller of Egton to the ones which Peter gave from looking at the parish records

As he said originally, it looks like there are two families, possibly three all with a father William whose children were being baptised at Egton

My gut reaction would be that the parents of the children marked as miller would be the William garbutt and Ann Saur who married on 17 Nov 1728. It would be interesting to se the original marriage entry in Northallerton to see if there are any clues in that. At that date, it may just be the two names though. Note one of the children, John died.

I tend to agree with Linda that the baptisms you posted seem unlikely to all be siblings. Take the hot spot of 1732, when 3 baptisms take place:

13 February 1731/2 William son of William Gorbut miller of Egton Bridge
5 August 1732 Josiph son of William Garbut of Eskdaleside
5 December 1732 Ann daughter of William Garbut householder of Glaisdale

Whilst I readily admit that sometimes a baptism took place some time after birth, I would have expected, if that were the case, at least one 'batch baptism' of two or more of the siblings, if indeed they were siblings.

Not sure what anyone else thinks.

Not sure about it being a big jump from meatman to miller - people did sometimes change occupation, and for all you know he may have inherited the mill, or taken over the working of the mill from a parent between those dates.

I have an ancestor who started off life as a tailor and then became a piano tuner in his middle years - you might call that a big jump, but the children born of the tailor married as children of the piano tuner, so they were the same man (who also happend to be a bigamist)

How can this be a sibling of your Richard, if his parents are Ann Saur and William Garbutt, who didn't marry until Nov 1728?


21 January 1727/8 William son of William Garbut householder of Eskdaleside

William Garbutt - Ann Saur - Egton - 17 November 1728

Even allowing for the fact that at that time the year didn't end until March, this baptism took place at what they would call at the time Jan 1727, and we would call Jan 1728, so several months before the wedding.

Miriam Blackett married Gulielmus Garbutt in May 1727, but she is unlikely to be the mother of this child as the birth would clash with that of her daughter Hannah, baptised in Feb 1728.

EDIT: to explain a bit more about what I said about the new year in this post:

"Calendar changes must also be considered. In 1752, England and her American colonies changed from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar. In the same year, the date the new year began was changed. Prior to 1752 it was 25 March; this was changed to 1 January. Many other European countries had already made the calendar changes before England had, sometimes centuries earlier. By 1751 there was an 11-day discrepancy between the date in England and the date in other European countries."

If you think Miriam who wrote the will is for some reason Ann Saur ( I can't get my head round your logic) then why is there not a baptism for her daughter Miriam, mentioned in the will as having survived long enough to be married, amongst the putative siblings you have ascribed to 'your' Richard?

EDIT: I seem to have missed the baptism for Myriam you have listed amongst the possible siblings of your Richard, in which case, apologies.

Also, the other chidren's names mentioned in Miriam's will, William, Sarah and Richard, are quite common, and it is entirely possible that more than one William Garbutt breeding in the area at the time might number a Richard, Sarah and William amongst his offspring. You have already mentioned a daughter Hannah born to Miriam who again, is not amongst possible siblings you ascribe to 'your' Richard.


I suspect it is still very open whether either William/Gulielmus or William and Ann, or some other couple are your direct ancestors. You seem determined to make Miriam the will writer your ancestor, and it feels as if you're bending the facts to fit.

Miriam Blackett seems to have been baptised at the same time as her first child, Hannah,who as I said, you do not list amongst Richard's siblings, ie after her marriage. Not sure why that is 'a spanner in the works'. Especially as you can't seem to find Ann Saur before her marriage date either.

Name: Meriel Or Merriam Blackett
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 06 Feb 1728
Christening Place: GLAISDALE,YORK,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 1707
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name:
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name:
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: P00751-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 432131
Reference ID:

Perhaps you need to look more closely at the baptism records of Hannah and Miriam junior, and see whether they do seem to be possible sibs for your Richard, or whether they do in fact tie in with the baptisms of other children named Richard, Sarah and William. You may end up having to reject Miriam the will writer as the ancestor of your Richard.


However I still think a woman named Miriam Garbutt nee Blackett is more likely to be a will writer named Miriam Garbutt, than an Ann Garbutt nee Ann Saur. So perhaps Miriam Blackett is your Richard's mother after all. Given that William the miller has a daughter named Myriam, in addition to children with the names mentioned in Miriam's will, also being baptised as children of William the miller, I would now think that quite likely.

Peter


just a thought ..............

........ I have traced one family of OH's back to ca 1720 in Yorkshire

then I and 1 or 2others are stuck


There are TWO families with the same surname, living in the same area, and in the same occupation, ie, Millers and farmers.

Both families have the same forenames occurring time and time again.

Both families actually may live and work at the same mill in different years.

Both families are known to move back and forwards between areas in Yorkshire and areas in Lancashire ................. it is thought that this was because both families were Quakers and suffered persecution. The theory is they moved form 1 area to the other when the persecution got too bad, then they moved back again.

One family has been traced back to a member who sailed with his family on William Penn's second fleet in 1680 to settle Pennsylvania. All people with the surname living in North America descend from that family. Consequently descendants of that man and his siblings have been well researched on both sides of the Atlantic.


Again ...................... that family and my OH's family have the same forenames occurring generation after generation.

Not only that, but the men of both sides have a tendency to marry women called Elizabeth

The 2 lines HAVE to be linked at some point in the 16th or 16th centuries ............. but I'm darned if I can find the link!


It's very, very difficult to sort out mine back beyond 1767 definitely, with the father of that child possibly being born in 1725.

Spanner in the works - here is the baptism of Miriam and daughter Hannah. No sign of Miriam on the IGI BEFORE this date:

Meriel wife and Hana filia Gulielmi Garbutt 6*0 die Februarii, meatman (1727/1728)

However, not sure this connects. After all, William is later recorded as the miller at Egton Bridge in 1731, so that is a big jump from being a butcher in 1727. Although I've not located a will for William, I know his son Richard, my ancestor was the miller at Egton due to his will from 1820.

Hmmmmm, does this through any further thoughts about Miriam being my ancestor?

Peter

Hi just a quick reply but I will return to this tomorrow.

Basically, the will of Miriam mentions names of children which seem to relate to my family.

My family are the children of William Garbutt of Egton Bridge, Miller. The children of this family seem to correlate to those mentioned in the will of Miram Garbutt - wold you agree? Until today I had not seen the marriage of William to Miriam, and ASSUMED that he had married Ann Saur. Maybe I was wrong.

Thoughts and opinions are much appreciated!

Again, just a quick responce but I will return to this tomorrow!

Peter

How do you imagine Ann became Miriam?

What is your logic?

I have a cd of memorial inscriptions from Egton, the following are all the Garbutt gravestones to be found in the churchyard. They are not the people mentioned above, but they may be of interest to you and tie in somewhere

In loving memory of Frances Eliz beloved wife of William GARBUTT of Egton bn 3 Dec 1844 d. 23 Oct 1904. Also the above William GARBUTT who d 6 Sep 1915 aged 72 yrs. Also their son Robinson who d 21 Sep 1907 aged 25 yrs. 1 line text

In memory of Jane GARBUTT of Egton Bridge who d on 1 Apr 1881 aged 82 yrs. 4 line verse

In affectionate memory of Sarah beloved wife of Robert HARRISON of Snowdon Nab, Egton who d 7 Jan 1898 aged 55 yrs. Also of Leonard GARBUTT of Egton Bridge who d 23 Feb 1871 aged 29 yrs. RIP. Also John GARBUTT son of the above who d at Egton Bridge 20 Nov 1911 aged 44 yrs. RIP

Metal cross. W. GARBUTT

Not sure where Danby in Cleveland is in relation to Egton or Lealholm Bridge, but this is the marriage of a William/Gulielmus to a Miriam at a similar period to the Ann Saur marriage.

Name: Gulielmus Garbutt<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Merriam Blackett<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 09 May 1727
Event Place: Danby In Cleveland,York,England
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00750-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 0432131, 0894244
Reference ID:

EDIT: Apparently Lealholm/ Lealholm Bridge, is close to Danby and also to Egton. I think this Miriam is likely to be the will writer and that she is definitely not 'Ann Saur'.

EDIT: I'm sure you know already, but Gulielmus is a latinised form of the name William.

I don't think the Glaisdale and eskdale side aptisms will be the same family

I can see the marriage
Name: William Garbutt
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Ann Saur
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 17 Nov 1728
Event Place: Egton,York,England
:
but I am confused as to how you think Ann Saur could be the Miriam who wrote the will

What is this supposed to convey?

"There was more than one William Garbutt baptising children at this time......."

Vicars perform the baptism ceremony................so were the various William Garbutts all vicars?

Hi there,

My ancestor Richard Garbutt (1734-1825) was born in Egton, Yorkshire to William Garbutt. There was more than one William Garbutt baptising children at this time but from looking at the parish regsiter (original at North Yorks Record Office) I seem to have found his siblings passed on father's occupation and abode:

21 January 1727/8 William son of William Garbut householder of Eskdaleside
6 October 1729 Roger son of William Garbut householder of Horse Mire Head
13 February 1731/2 William son of William Gorbut miller of Egton Bridge
5 August 1732 Josiph son of William Garbut of Eskdaleside
5 December 1732 Ann daughter of William Garbut householder of Glaisdale
26 December 1734 Richard son of William Garbut miller of Egton Bridge
11 April 1736 John son of William Garbut miller of Egton Bridge
26 March 1738 Jonathan son of William Garbut miller of Egton Bridge
2 August 1740 Sarah daughter of William Garbut miller of Egton Bridge
11 October 1742 Rachel daughter of William Garbut miller of Egton Bridge
21 February 1744/5 Myriam daughter of William Garbut miller of Egton Bridge

There is two if not three families here.

Anyway, I looked for a marriage of a William Garbutt and found the following:

William Garbutt - Ann Saur - Egton - 17 November 1728

So, I googled this and found a will on the net for a Miriam Garbutt in 1780, which COULD BE Ann SAUR ... I am not sure though and would like other opinions and how this all links. Does this seems plausible? I have looked also for the neices and nephews mentioned in the will, as this would help find a baptism for Ann SAUR but no luck yet! Any help?

Here is the will:

Will of Miriam GARBUTT of Lealholm Bridge Proved March 1790 made 9 July 1779
(transcribed by Bryan Hoggarth February 2010, original at Borthwick)

Cover
Cleveland
Exon of the Will of Miriam GARBUT late of Lealholm Bridge Widow deced was granted to William GARBUT her son & sole Extor
by HAWXWELL 7th March 1780 ~~~~~~~~~
Will
In the name of God Amen I Miriam GARBUT of Lealholm Bridge in the Parish of Danby in the County of York Widow do make this my last Will and Testament in manner following.
First, I give and Devise to my Son William GARBUT all that my House with the Appurtenances wherein he now dwells which I lately bought of John FOSTER situate, lying, and being in the township of Lastingham in the said County together with the little Lime-pit Garth at the lower end of the Town of Lastingham aforesaid, adjoining on the grounds of Ralph BLAKELOCK on the North. To have and to hold to my said Son William GARBUT his Heirs and Assigns for ever. Also I give unto my Daughter Sarah SIGSWORTH the Sum of Twenty-five Pounds to be paid by my Executors hereinafter named within twelve kalender Months next after my Decease. Also I give and bequeath unto my Son Richard GARBUT the Sum of Five Pounds to be paid in like manner. Also I give unto my Nephew Peter FAWCITT, and my Nieces Miriam, Rachel, and Mary FAWCITTS the Sum of Five Pounds, to be equally divided amongst them; to be paid by my Executor in like manner. Also I give and bequeath unto my Daughter Miriam MOON the Sum of Five Pounds to be paid in like manner, together with my best Bed, Linen and other Household furniture as are now in the possession of Christopher MOON of Lealholm Bridge aforesaid: And as are numbered and marked by a Schedule thereto annexed.
All the rest residue and remainder of my Estate and Effects whatsoever and wheresoever I give Devise and bequeath unto my said Son William GARBUT, he paying thereout the above Legacies, Debts and funeral Expences; And I do hereby Constitute and appoint him the said William GARBUT, sole Executor of this my last Will and Testament; hereby revoking all other Wills or Testaments heretofore by me made In Witness whereof I have hereunto set my Hand and Seal this ninth Day of July in the Year of our Lord 1779.

Signed sealed published and }
declared by the said Testatrix } Miriam GARBUT
as and for her last Will and } her + Mark [seal]
Testament in the presence of us } and Seal
who at her request, in her presence }
and in the presence of each other }
have subscribed our Names as }
Witnesses thereto }

John CORNFORTH
Barnud BOANAS
Peter MERRY

Inventory
An Inventory or Schedule
of the Effects of Miriam
GARBUT late of Lealholm
Deceased
L s d
First Her Purse and Apparel 2 10 0
One Messuage with the little Garth out of which the }
Legacies as mentioned by Will are to be paid } 75 0 0
One Bed and Beding 2 10 0
One Round Table Wainscott 0 7 6
One Large Table Cloth 0 10 6
Some More Linen 0 15 0
Half a Doz, Silver Spoons 0 7 6
Some more Utensils in Kitching 0 15 0
-- -- --
£82 15 6

Taken and Valued by us whose Names are underwritten this 16th Day of February 1780
Peter MERRY
Thomas LAYBOURN

Admon
Know all Men by theses presents, that We William GARBUT of Lastingham in the County of York Innholder and Peter MERRY of Lealholm Bridge in the County of York Yeoman ~~~~~~~~~ Sum of one hundred sixty five pounds ~~~~~~~~ Dated twenty sixth day of February 1780.

The Condition of this Obligation is such, that if the above bounden William GARBUT Son and sole Executor named in the last Will and Testament of Miriam GARBUT late of Lealholm Bridge aforesaid in the Diocese aforesaid Widow deceased do well and truly ~~~~~

Sealed and Delivered his
in the presence of Wm + GARBUT
Wm HAWXWELL mark

Peter MERRY

Back of Admon
William. GARBUT the Executor within named was duly sworn before me
Wm HAWXWELL Surrogate
past 7th March 1780 ud 40L

Taken from:

http://www.hoggarth.co.uk/wills.htm


Thank you!

Peter