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Absolutely sad, Misty.

Incredible that John did not step up to help his daughter Emma when she was attached by Sarah Ruth but simply got stuck in himself by the looks of things.

I had found the Birkenhead people and wondered whether they were the same as the Liverpool ones as several of the names tied in together but discounted them because of the wife Rose and the fact that John was stated as being born in Ireland (although I know that census-takers often put down wrong information).

I did not find Elizabeth Welch marriage though. It looks as though she could be Esther's sister...... but I also believe that Elizabeth and Mary are one and the same in the census where Mary possibly lied about her age. Was that the one where she is a nurse (or was that when Esther (now Robinson) and family are living with her at Hurst Street? Perhaps Elizabeth hid her age to continue working in nursing?

Thank you.

Very sad.....

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=BA18880705.2.10&e=-------10--1----0-all

Misty x

would some one care to check this marriages witnesses

I read as Henry Sanders ---- Mary Burgess 62 mother of bride ?? the last bit is over the next marriage after this one

: Elizabeth Welch
Age: 25
Birth Year: abt 1842
Marriage Date: 14 Jan 1867
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's Name: Christopher Welch
Spouse's Name: William Sanders
Spouse's Age: 25
Spouse's Father's Name: Henry Sanders
Archive Roll: 734


Mavis

1871 Birkenhead --- not sure if these have any connection ???


Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where born
WELCH, John Head M 40 1831 Ireland
WELCH, Rose Wife F 30 1841 Ireland
WELCH, Alice Daughter F 11 1860 Cheshire
WELCH, Cristopher Son M 9 1862 Cheshire
WELCH, John Son M 8 1863 Cheshire
WELCH, Mary Daughter F 4 1867 Cheshire
WELCH, Thomas Son M 2 1869 Cheshire
WELCH, Margaret Daughter F 1 1870 Cheshire
WELCH, Cristopher Father M 60 1811 Ireland
WELCH, Mary Mother F 59 1812 Ireland Piece: 3747 Folio: 31 Page: 55 Registration District: Birkenhead Civil Parish: Birkenhead Municipal Borough: Address: Back Of Beckwith Street, Birkenhead County: Cheshire

Mavis

1841 Liverpool

Name Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where born
WELCH, Christopher M 30 1811 Ireland
WELCH, Mary F 25 1816 Lancashire
WELCH, Thomas M 6 1835 Lancashire
WELCH, Elizabeth F 3 1838 Lancashire
WELCH, Mary F 1 1840 Lancashire
DOWD, Margaret F 70 1771
COX, Catharine F 30 1811 Lancashire Piece: 566 Book/Folio: 20/25 Page: 2 Registration District: Liverpool Civil Parish: Liverpool Municipal Borough: Liverpool Address: Hurst Street, Liverpool County: Lancashire



the child Sarah Ruth Welch attacked was Emma 14y in 1888 step daughter

John Welch husband got 7y penal servitude

Mavis

John and Sarah children...

Emma Grey Welch...1875.........Step daughter
Francis John Welch...1877
Ernest Christopher Welch....1880
Arthur Clements Welch....1886

All born Liverpool, details on Ancestry.


Looking at original census images for Esther c1845, on 1851 she is with Mary Welsh and with Elizabeth Welsh on 1861, address on both is the same 4 Hurst Street.....I think Mary and Elizabeth are one and the same person....although why she is Elizabeth in 61 is anyone's guess...... No Christopher on either

Then there is this.....

1851 England Census
Name:Christopher Welsh
Age:40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relation :Lodger
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration District: Liverpool
Sub Registration District: St Martin

Catherine Smith 70
Bryan Smith 26
Bridget Smith 28
Catherine Smith 17
Christopher Welsh 40......
Mary Welsh 31.....
Kate Welsh 13.....
John Welsh 4.....


Misty x

Thanks, Misty.

She was out by 1901 and living with John and two sons at Windmill Road, Chiswick.

I noticed that in 1911 Sarah stated that she had four children all living - wonder who the other two were.

Also in 1911 she had a granddaughter living with the family.

My hubby's on Ancestry so I'll check there.

Many thanks,

J

Hi JoyLouise

All information from Ancestry...if you do not have access you are able to take out a free 14 day trial but do not forget to cancel before end or full sub will be taken from account !!

No victim name given

Looks like John and Sara re-united on 1911 census

Christopher deceased by 1876 on Johns marriage entry, John is a widower so yes it is his second marriage.

Christopher is stated as a joiner on Johns first marriage entry in 1872, does not say deceased

Misty x

Thanks, Misty.

That certainly looks like John and his wife.

Who was the victim?

Where can I find the information?

I see that Sarah Ruth Smith was John's second wife - the first (in 1872) was Sarah Emma Frith.

You're right in stating that Christopher seems to have been alive in 1864 as Esther does not state that he's deceased in the marriage register but that he's a boilermaker.

Possible death for Christopher...right area

Deaths Sep 1858

Welsh Christopher W Derby 8b 245

Misty x

Edit.... the death above is prob not the correct one....Esther's marriage cert does not state father deceased in 1864

Nothing to do with original question but thought this may interest you....

England & Wales, Criminal Registers, 1791-1892

Name:Sarah Ruth Welch
Date of Trial:3 May 1888
Trial Year:1888
Location of Trial:Lancashire, England

Sentence :Imprisonment for Life

Crime: Causing grievous bodily harm with intent to murder

Mistyx

Edit....John also in prison by 1891

Yes, John is one of their children. I have this entry from the marriage register. I also have two other entries (another of John's, I believe from memory to another Sarah) and one for their brother.

I'm tracing the family back and have discovered my direct ancestor, Esther. I have a copy of her marriage entry and several other copied certificates for Esther's children.

Something happened to the family before 1861 as I've discovered Esther, John and sister Margaret living as the children of Elizabeth and not Mary (mother's name was Mary Ann nee Clement).

Thank you for replying, Ann.

wonder if this is one of their children?

Name: John Welch
Birth Date: 1852
Birthplace:
Age: 24
Spouse's Name: Sarah Ruth Smith
Spouse's Birth Date: 1856
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age: 20
Event Date: 29 Jan 1876
Event Place: Saint Catherine, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: Christopher Welch
Spouse's Father's Name: Isaac Smith
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M16096-2
System Origin: England-VR
GS Film number: 1546076
Reference ID: 2:1FH4M44

I have a 2 x Great-grandfather, Christopher Welch, born c1812 in Ireland who married Mary Ann Clement (aka Clemmets/Clamment/Clemmison) in Liverpool. They had my Great-gran, Esther - among other children.

How can I find out which part of Ireland Christopher was born in?

If anyone can point me in the right direction, I'd be grateful.