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David
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1 Jan 2014 23:09 |
Researching Palmer.
I am looking for Ernest Palmer b 1867 South Norwood and his wife. Elizabeth Louisa Palmer, formerly Plested née Grimes b. 1850, Norwich and son Charles Kenneth Alexander b 1890 S. Norwood. They emigrated to Canada in 1902, not 1892 and 1904 as in the 1911 Canadian census. Charles served in the CEF in Europe but was given compassionate discharge in 1919, I suspect because his father died. (I have his army records) Ernest served in the army in Canada but was invalided out with Pneumonia and arthritis. He was re-attested to undergo further treatment. Charles married Marie Désirée Piret in the RC Church Huntsville 1920. I am searching for the deaths of Ernest, Elizabeth and Marie, and any children the latter may have had. Note: 1. they regularly lie about their age, 2. The names of Marie and Elizabeth are spelled incorrectly on their marriage cert.
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MargaretM
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2 Jan 2014 01:12 |
Previous thread:
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/living_relatives/thread/1319156
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David
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2 Jan 2014 07:09 |
Thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten that I posted that. Still looking for their deaths. I believe there is a 1921 census available now?
I know I got the son's army records from a Canadian site, but I have forgotten which one. If I remember I could get those for the father which would probably . Ernest said he served with the British in South Africa, but I couldn't find him.
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MarieCeleste
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2 Jan 2014 08:01 |
Could be Charles, seems to think he's Welsh.
1921 Census of Canada
Name: Charles K Palmer Gender: Male Marital Status: Married Age: 30 Birth Year: abt 1891 Birth Place: Wales Relation to Head of House: Head Spouse's Name: Marie Palmer Father Birth Place: Wales Mother Birth Place: England Year of Immigration: 1901 Racial or Tribal Origin: English Province or Territory: Ontario
District: Lincoln District Number: 100 Sub-District: St Catharines (City) Sub-District Number: 49 City, Town or Village: St Catherines Street or Township: 38 Ottawa St Municipality: St Catharines
Occupation: Dviller (Driller?) Income: 1500
Household Members: Name Age Charles K Palmer 30 Marie Palmer 18 - Belgian - arrived 1920.
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MarieCeleste
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2 Jan 2014 08:06 |
Here's the link to Charles WW1 records - if you click on the "View Record" on the top right of the image you can navigate to the other page of the record.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562812a.gif&id_nbr=543484
I see he says he was born 1894?
These are only WW1 records so think Ernest may have been too old?
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MarieCeleste
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2 Jan 2014 08:18 |
Ernest in 1921:
1921 Census of Canada about Earnest Palmer
Name: Earnest Palmer Gender: Male Marital Status: Married Age: 54 Birth Year: abt 1867 Birth Place: England Relation to Head of House: Head Spouse's Name: Louisa Palmer Father Birth Place: Wales Mother Birth Place: England Year of Immigration: 1902 Racial or Tribal Origin: Welsh
Province or Territory: Ontario District: Toronto East District Number: 131 Sub-District: Ward 1 Sub-District Number: 2 City, Town or Village: Toronto East Street or Township: 38 Strange St Municipality: Ward One
Occupation: Income Income: 100
Household Members: Name Age Earnest Palmer 54 Louisa Palmer 66 Henry Proctor 48 - Lodger, English, arrived 1908
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MarieCeleste
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2 Jan 2014 08:23 |
I'm putting this here for elimination, at first glance it seemed to fit but the details don't tally:
Ontario, Canada, Deaths, 1869-1938 and Deaths Overseas, 1939-1947
Name: Louisa Elizabeth Palmer Death Date: 30 Aug 1930 Death County or District: York Death State: Ontario Death Country: Canada Age: 75 Gender: Female Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855 Birth Location: England
This lady was the daughter of William Kingdon & Eliza Vickery and the informant was daughter Mrs Maude Deighton.
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MarieCeleste
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2 Jan 2014 08:53 |
David - if Charles was discharged in 1919 on compassionate grounds then it couldn't be the death of his father who appears to be alive on the 1921 census. Might it have been something to do with his first marriage? From your first thread:
"Charles married, Kitty Eileen Blay in Godalming during the war, but that marriage only seemed to last about 6 months. Charles returned to Canada in 1919 where he was described as a farmer."
ADDED: Have you followed up on what happened to Charles' first wife Kitty?
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MarieCeleste
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2 Jan 2014 09:28 |
Ernest's military papers are on FindMyPast - he did serve in South Africa.
British Army Service Records 1760-1915 Transcription
First name(s): Ernest Last name: PALMER Calculated year of birth: 1869 Parish of birth: Craydon Town of birth: Croydon County of birth: Surrey Age at attestation: 32 years Attestation date: 10 April 1901 Attestation corps: Royal Army Medical Corps Attestation soldier number: 15454 Discharge rank: Discharge corps: Discharge soldier number: The National Archives reference: WO97
Confirms he married Elizabeth Louisa Plested in 1889. If you want a copy of the records then send me a private message with an email address and I'll forward them.
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MarieCeleste
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2 Jan 2014 11:16 |
I see there was another thread about Charles:
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1140234
David, it's always a good idea to use the "My Threads" link to see what you've previously posted and add to and existing thread about the same people so we don't keep going over old ground.
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MarieCeleste
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2 Jan 2014 11:33 |
Speaking of old threads, I came across this
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=85399.0;wap
In it, it's stated about Charles:
" 21.3.19 he was SOS to CDD Buxton and returned to Canada 14.4.19 on Olympic."
Are you absolutely certain that the Charles Palmer who came back on that ship is your man? The reason I ask is that looking at this record there are some things don't tie up
Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935 Name: Charles Palmer Date of Arrival: 21 Apr 1919 Vessel: Olympic Port of Arrival: Halifax, Nova Scotia Port of Departure: Southampton, England Roll: T-14795
If my calculation is right this ship would have left Southampton around the 14th.
The things that don't add up are:
This man's religion is given as Presbyterian yet yours got married in an RC church?
This man gives his next of kin as his sister - did your Charles have a sister?
If I've picked the wrong record up I do apologise and, if I have, which is the correct one?
(I know it's deaths and descendants you're looking for but we need to establish the facts of the people first to trace them).
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mgnv
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2 Jan 2014 18:37 |
Charles's attestation: http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562812a.gif http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562812b.gif
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-130-e.html has a link that tells you how to get WW1 service records. It also has a link that gets you to the war diaries of Chas's unit.
Ernest: http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562865a.gif http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562865b.gif http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562866a.gif http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562866b.gif
Go to http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/microform-digitization/006003-110.01-e.php and follow the path below: Title: Veterans Death Cards: First World War Microform: olsen_b Page 1082 of 1284 to get to: http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/006003/dc-fww/olsen_b/jpg/olsen_b_1082.jpg [Ernest d 24/1/1939 in London, Ontario - I found no card for Chas]
Ernest's Boer War service was in the British army, so that bit of his record is available via FMP: First Name:ERNEST Last Name:PALMER Age At Attestation Months:- Age At Attestation Years:32 Record set:British Army Service Records 1760-1915 Attestation Day:10 Attestation Month:4 Year Of Birth:1869 Document Type:Attestation Year:1901 Birth Country:ENGLAND Birth County:SURREY Attestation Corps:Royal Army Medical Corps Birth Parish:CRAYDON Attestation Soldier Number:15454 Birth Town:CROYDON Discharge Corps:Royal Army Medical Corps Discharge Soldier Number:- Rank:- Box:5641 Regiment:Royal Army Medical Corps Box Record Number:97 Soldier Number:15454 Series:chelsea pensioners british army service records 1760-1913
[I've pm'ed the 4 images to David]
Fern Glen is in Parry Sound District, not far from Huntsville which is abt 90km N of Orillia on the road to North Bay. In Ontario, a district is a sort of 2nd class county.
1911 Census of Canada Home / 1911 / Ontario / Parry Sound / 24 McMurrich Township / page 14 24 149 Palmer Ernest M Head M Sep 1862 48 25 149 Palmer Elizabeth F Wife M Sep 1858 52 26 149 Palmer Charles M Son S Sep 1889 21 http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/pdf/e002011603.pdf
Unlike the UK census, where a form was left at each residence, and the enumerator only asked questions if there was some bother with the form, in Canada, the questions were asked at the threshold, so a slight variation could easily lead to different answers. So 'when did you immigrate' might get 1904 or whatever, but 'when did you come to Canada' might get 1892 if there were a prior non-immigating visit - I'm just speculating.
Right now, you can search 1921 & view images for free via: http://search.ancestry.ca/search/db.aspx?dbid=8991
Maybe: Ship: MAURITANIA Shipping Line: Cunard Steamship Co. Ltd. Departure Port and Date (yyyy/mm/dd): Liverpool, England - 1919-06-01 Port and Date of Arrival: Halifax, Nova Scotia - 1919-06-06 New York - [1919-06] Reference: RG 76 Microfilm: T-14795 http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e244/e006086368.jpg
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David
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2 Jan 2014 23:04 |
MarieCeleste
Thanks for your replies. It is all a bit too much for me to digest in one go, so I will print it all out and answer in one go if that is OK? In the meantime here is thed family's religious history. Elazabeth Grimes was baptised and accepted as a member of St Mary's Baptist church Norwich where she married Henry Alfred Plested (my ggf) on 25th December 1874. Henry died in 1878 about the time my grandfather was born. Elizabeth transferred her membership to Lowestoft Baptist church, but returned about 1880 as it seems her mother was ill. Elizabeth was on the Christmas church poor distribution list for a couple of years but left in 1866 and at sometime she joined the Salvation Army. (St Mary's membership lists and deacon's records.) On the 1911 Canadian census, Ernest and Elizabeth said they were Church of England.
On the same census page, Charles said he was Presbyterian, on his army attestation, C of E, and on his marriage, RC. He also said he was a bachelor which was not true.
Regarding his first wife, Kitty Eileen Blay, I first came across her in his army records when he was given permission to marry her by his commanding officer. They were married in the Parish Church of Godalming, in 1917, which seemed to be the garrison church and the service was conducted by the padre.
After the marriage, according to his army records, his assigned pay was paid to his wife instead of his mother, but after about 6 months has suspended the paid again to his mother. I have not found any other trace of Eileen.
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David
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3 Jan 2014 20:14 |
MarieCelest Replies to your posts yesterday.
2 Jan 2014 08:01 I don’t believe half of what my family have said on Census returns and even certs. Many have given wrong dates of birth. One who married in Australia gave her age as 27 when she was 36 and one Australian descendant said she seemed to stay 27 for a long time. My grandfather’s birth cert seemed to give a fictitious mother’s name but his baptism cert gave the correct one. My other gps had their fathers’ first names reversed. Charles’ father Ernest said his father was born in Wales. Charles and Marie are shown as RC, following on from my comments about the family’s religion. Another interesting thing I note from the 1921 census is that living in the same house were Aristide and Marie Peret. Aristide and Marie Piret were Marie Palmer’s parents. She also had a brother Aristide.
2 Jan 2014 08:06 Quote “I see he says he was born 1894?” He lied. Quote “These are only WW1 records so think Ernest may have been too old?” Ernest was in WW1. He gave his dob as 2 Sept 1874, and on the 2nd attestation gave it as a year later 2 Sept 1875.
2 Jan 2014 11:33 I think you have picked the correct record. He was Presbyterian then married a Belgian girl who was Catholic. On the 1921 cencus both they and his parents are shown as RC I don’t think he had a sister Elisabeth would have been 71 in 1921. As her husband was 17 years her juniour, she gradually reduced her age and he increased his (Except when he joined the army, then he reduced it.)
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MarieCeleste
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3 Jan 2014 21:36 |
Hello David, yes I've since found Ernest's enlistment and see what you mean.
I have some family members rather like that too, I can't trust anything they say on any document.
I've been trying to find the Palmers on Canadian voter lists without any success. Did any of the family in England have contact with them after 1921 to give any clues as to where they might have been?
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David
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3 Jan 2014 22:06 |
I think this may be Elizabeth.
Name: Elizabeth Louise Palmer Event Type: Death Event Date: 02 Oct 1921 Event Place: York, Scarboro, Ontario, Canada Gender: Female Age: 64 Birth Date: Birthplace: Birth Year (Estimated): 1857 Burial Date: Burial Place: Father's Name: Mother's Name: Spouse's Name: Reference ID: p 339 GS Film number: 1863546 Digital Folder Number: 4171538 Image Number: 1219
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MarieCeleste
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3 Jan 2014 22:14 |
Yes, that's her David - I'll send you the actual image by pm. It has father's name as Grimes. The informant was husband FRANCES Ernest Palmer (where did Frances come from?)
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David
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3 Jan 2014 22:55 |
Thanks for the image. It was much appreciated.
Frances? Strange.
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mgnv
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4 Jan 2014 03:03 |
I just googled the 122nd bn CEF - it seems most men went into the Canadian Forestry Corps. Was this the case for Chas? If not, what unit did he wind up in (most of the Canadian depot bns were used as replacements of the regular front line bns). If he was in the CFC, did he serve in France, or in the UK? - abt 40% logeed UK forests. The ones in France also had some companies mainly involved in constructing airfields. FYI: https://archive.org/details/canadianforestry00birduoft
One of the more interesting products of the CFC was giant wooden letter A's. These were placed, point down, in trenches - the legs of the A provided posts behind which one could place tin sheeting or wattle to maintain the trench walls. A plankway was placed on the cross-piece of the A, which allowed for drainage under the plankway.
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David
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5 Jan 2014 00:54 |
Mgnv. Charles served in UK and France. I don’t know where I put the file with the palmers in but I am not up to searching for it as I have a bad fall on New years eve. I would like to get the service records for Ernest, but I have forgotten how to order them.
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