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I am researching the Webb side of our family and in the 1881 census for Studholme Street, Camberwell the head of the house is Julia Webb who lives with her son George, Lydia M Johnson and grandchildren. Lydia M is the daughter of Lydia H Johnson who was co-habiting with George. The grandchildren are the children of Lydia H and George. Also listed in Alice Webb, daughter in law, b.1854 in Holborn St Andrew. I can find no record of a marriage for Alice. Can anyone help me please.

Anne Coletta

for info

Lydia M Johnson in household of Julia Webb, "England and Wales Census, 1881"
Name: Lydia M Johnson
Age (Original): 5
Gender: Female
Birth Year: 1876
Birthplace: Lambeth, Surrey, England
Relationship to Head of Household: None
Marital Status: Single
Occupation:
Address: 2 Studholme St
Event Place: Camberwell, Surrey, England
Disability:
Record Type: Household
GS Film number: 1341160
Affiliate Publication Number: RG11
Piece/Folio: 689 / 96
Page Number: 58
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Head Julia Webb F 70 New Cross
Son George Webb M 49 Finsbury St Luke, Middlesex, England
Daughter In Law Alice Webb F 27 Holborn St Andrew, Middlesex, England
None Lydia M Johnson F 5 Lambeth, Surrey, England
Grand Daughter Rosa Webb F 3 Lambeth, Surrey, England
Grand Daughter Julia Webb F 1 Camberwell St Giles, Surrey, England
Grand Son George E Webb M 0 Camberwell St Giles, Surrey, England

So, who was George's wife?

He is recorded as being married

And where was the woman with whom he fathered the children?

1851 census

Person: WEBB, George Address: 3, Snow Hill, Saint Sepulchre, London

WEBB, George Head Married M 38 1813 Printer
Kingsbridge, Devonshire VIEW
WEBB, Julia Wife Married F 36 1815
Deptford, Kent VIEW
WEBB, George Son Unmarried M 21 1830 Artist
St Lukes, Middlesex VIEW
WEBB, William Son M 18 1833 Printer
St Lukes, Middlesex VIEW
WEBB, Julia Daughter F 16 1835 Scholar
St Dunstan, Middlesex VIEW
WEBB, Eliza Daughter F 10 1841 Scholar
St Sepulchre, Middlesex VIEW
WEBB, Emma Daughter F 6 1845 Scholar
St Sepulchre, Middlesex VIEW
PARROT, Amelia Relation Unmarried F 50 1801 House Servant
St Lukes, Middlesex

Could it be that "Lydia" was mistranscribed as "Alice"?


..1891 England Census
about Julia Webb Name: Julia Webb
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Lydia Webb
Gender: Female
Where born: Peckham, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Newington St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Marks
Town: London City
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration District: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration District: St Peter Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 36
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 363
Folio: 71
Page Number: 18
Household Members: Name Age
Lydia Webb 40 (Married) Holborn London
Lydia M Webb 15
Rose Webb 14
Julia Webb 11
George E Webb 10
Emily Webb 6

..1901 England Census
about George Webb Name: George Webb
Age: 69
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Lydia Webb
Birth Place: St Luke, London, England
Civil Parish: Newington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
George Webb 69 (Lithographic Draughsman)
Lydia Webb 50 >>>St Andrew London
Lydia Webb 25
Julia Webb 22
George Webb 21
Emily E Webb 19


Household transcription
1911 census

Person: WEBB, George
Address: 33 Sellincourt Road Tooting S W

WEBB, George Head Single M 79 1832 Retired Lithographic Artist And Printers City of London VIEW
HAMSTEAD, William Thomas John Single M 28 1883 Bricklayers Labourer London Walworth VIEW
JOHNSON, Fredie Boarder Single M 31 1880 General Carpet Sewers Surrey Peckham VIEW
RG number: RG14
Piece: 2361
Reference: RG14PN2361 RG78PN78B RD26 SD5 ED76 SN269
Registration District: Wandsworth
Sub District: Streatham
Enumeration District: 76
Parish: Wandsworth Borough
Address: 33 Sellincourt Road Tooting S W
County: London

Follow on from Reggie’s post:-


Children of George & Julia Webb Middlesex 1830-1845

(Familysearch.org)

19Feb1837 St Andrew Holborn
Julia Elizabeth 28Aug1835
William 30Nov1833
George 8Feb1832

07Mar1844 St Andrew Holborn
Eliza 3Sep1840
Emma 27Jan1844



PARROT
1 x Ancestry tree shows George Webb married to Julia Parrott
Search with Julia Parrott lists 2 x Public & a number of Private Trees

Wonder if the following might be of use. Lydia H b.1851 St Andrews London, was married to Fredrick Johnson in 1874 in Woolwich. Their daughter Lydia Mary (listed in 1881 census) was born 23.1.1875 in Bull Street, St Martin le Grand, London. Lydia H was never married to George Webb. Their youngest daughter Emily was my grandmother.

Any thoughts on the info posted?

So, is this Lydia in 1881??

1881 census transcription details for: 16, Aldersgate Buildings, St Botolph Without Aldersgate
Print Close

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG11
Piece: 373
Folio: 57
Page: 27
Reg. District: London City
Sub District: Cripplegate
Parish: St Botolph Without Aldersgate
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 16, Aldersgate Buildings, St Botolph Without Aldersgate
County: London, Middlesex
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
JOHNSON, Frederick Head Married M 32 1849 Police Sergeant City
Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland
JOHNSON, Lydia H Wife Married F 31 1850
Woolwich, Kent
JOHNSON, William E Son Single M 4 1877
London City, London, Middlesex
JOHNSON, Elizabeth A Daughter Single F 2 1879
London City, London, Middlesex
JOHNSON, ? Son Single M 0 1881
London City, London, Middlesex

The little boy as yet unamed there was later baptised as Ernest Frederick - Could this be the Fredie shown with Lydia and George on the 1911 census??

This is a very 'tangled family...... (IF it is the same family?)

Dea Xxx

This doesn't make sense - George's Lydia must be a different one to the one married to Frederick Johnson.

The 1891 is posted above for the Lydia with the daughter Lydia M BUT there were 2 baptisms posted on either side of that census which show that Frederick and Lydia were still together having children???:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Albert Johnson
Name: Albert Johnson
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 16 Feb 1890
Father's Name: Frederick Johnson
Mother's Name: Lydia Harriett Johnson
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Mark
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers




London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Horace Johnson
Name: Horace Johnson
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 5 Jun 1892
Father's Name: Frederick Johnson
Mother's Name: Lydia Harriett Johnson
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Mark
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers


Dea x

Tthis looks like Lydia's death...

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
about Lydia johnson Webb Name: Lydia johnson Webb
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1903
Age at Death: 52
Registration District: Southwark
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 78

..1901 England Census
about Horace Johnson Name: Horace Johnson
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Father: Frederick Johnson
Birth Place: Shoreditch, London, England
Civil Parish: Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Frederick Johnson 52 (Widower) GPO Inspector
Elizabeth Johnson 21
Frederick M Johnson 13
Albert Johnson 11
Horace Johnson 8

Deaths Jun 1897 (>99%)
Johnson Lydia Harriet 46 Hackney 1b 254


1891 England Census
about Frederick Johnson Name: Frederick Johnson
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Lydia H Johnson
Gender: Male
Where born: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Northumberland, England

Civil Parish: Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael Mark Street
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration District: Shoreditch
Sub-registration District: Shoreditch, South
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 243
Folio: 138
Page Number: 41
Household Members: Name Age
Frederick Johnson 42
Lydia H Johnson 41
William E Johnson 14
Elizabeth A Johnson 11
Ernest F Johnson 10
Frederick M Johnson 7

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Frederick Johnson (Bachelor)....Occupation not given
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Age: 26
Spouse Name: Lydia Harriett Marshall (Spinster)
Spouse Age: 25
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 20 Jun 1874
Parish: Charlton St Thomas
Borough: Greenwich
Father Name: William Johnson (Wheelwright)
Spouse Father: Edward Marshall (Assistant...???
Register Type: Parish Register
Witnesses: James Ladd? and Thomas Johnson


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Lydia Harriet Marshall Name: Lydia Harriet Marshall
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 4 Nov 1849
Father's Name: Edward Marshall (Labourer)
Mother's Name: Agnes Ann Marshall
Abode: Church Street
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Greenwich
Register Type: Parish Registers



..1851 England Census
about Edward Marshall Name: Edward Marshall
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1815
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Agnes Marshall
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Eutl, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Woolwich
Town: Woolwich
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration District: Greenwich
Sub-registration District: Woolwich Dockyard
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 109
Piece: 1588
Folio: 100
Page Number: 27
Household Members: Name Age
Edward Marshall 36 (Labourer)
Agnes Marshall 39
David Marshall 8
Lydia Marshall 1
William Marshall 25

Residence: Cottage Back of Gables? Church Street.

There is a 1901 census posted above showing Lydia H with daughter Lydia M

However, following 'our Frederick', I see him here in 1901 as a widower:

1901 census transcription details for: 144, Hertford Road, Hackney
Print Close

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13
Piece: 228
Folio: 97
Page: 44
Reg. District: Hackney
Sub District: South-West Hackney
Parish: Hackney
Enum. District: 31
Ecclesiastical District: St Peters
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 144, Hertford Road, Hackney
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
JOHNSON, Frederick Head Widower M 52 1849 G P O Inspector
Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland
JOHNSON, Elizabeth A Daughter Single F 21 1880
City, London
JOHNSON, Frederick M Son M 13 1888
Shoreditch, London
JOHNSON, Albert Son M 11 1890
Shoreditch, London
JOHNSON, Horace Son M 8 1893
Shoreditch, London


AND - I can find a death which matches Lydia in the right place at the right time:

Deaths Jun 1897
Johnson Lydia Harriet 46 Hackney 1b 254

I DO believe that these are 2 different Harriet's!

We need Anne to come back and tell us what proof she has that Frederick's Lydia ended up with George please.

Dea Xxx

OOOppps - Sorry Prickles - I hadn't refreshed the page ;-) :-D :-D

We DO agree though :-D

Dea Xxx

No worries.

I am pleased you confirmed the info i found.

;-)

??

1851 England Census
about Lydia Johnson Name: Lydia Johnson
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Edward Johnson
Mother's Name: Matha Johnson
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Holborn

Civil Parish: Holborn St Andrew
Town: London
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration District: Holborn
Sub-registration District: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 5g
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 118
Piece: 1513
Folio: 489
Page Number: 34
Household Members: Name Age
Edward Johnson 60
Matha Johnson 40
Matha Johnson 11
Edward Johnson 10
Susan Johnson 8
William Johnson 4
Rosa Johnson 3
Lydia Johnson 1
(Res: Brownslow Street) <<<<

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Ann Lydia Johnson Name: Ann Lydia Johnson
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 31 Mar 1850
Born: 5th March 1850
Father's Name: Edward Johnson (Warehouse Man)
Mother's Name: Martha Johnson
Abode: Brownslow Street <<<<<
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Andrew Holborn
Borough: City of London
Register Type: Parish Registers


..1871 England Census
about Lydia Johnson Name: Lydia Johnson
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Martha Johnson
Gender: Female
Where born: Holborn, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Hammersmith
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration District: Kensington
Sub-registration District: St Paul Hammersmith
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Household Schedule Number: 118
Piece: 63
Folio: 41
Page Number: 27
Household Members: Name Age
Martha Johnson 55
Edward J Johnson 30
William Thos Johnson 30
William W Johnson 25
Lydia Johnson 21
Samuel Johnson 17



..1861 England Census
about Edward Johnson Name: Edward Johnson
Age: 71
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1790
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: Regent Square
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration District: Pancras
Sub-registration District: Grays Inn Lane
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 127
Piece: 105
Folio: 98
Page Number: 24
Household Members: Name Age
Edward Johnson 71 (Married)
T E Johnson 20
Wilm Johnson 15
Martha Johnson 13
Rosa A Johnson 11
Samuel Johnson 8

I have a copy of Lydia Mary Johnson's birth certificate. Mother - Lydia Harriett Johnson, formerly Marshall. Father: Frederick Johnson, City Police Constable. As you say it looks as though we have two Lydias. I have also a copy of Emily Webb's birth certificate. Her mother is Lydia Webb, formerly Johnson, Father - George Webb. I have been told reason for George not showing on some of the census returns is that he was a set designer in theatres mostly in Paris.
It just goes to show that a lot of false information is passed around in families and you have proved that it is always best to do your own research as far as you can and confirm this with any available paperwork. Many thanks for all your help and teaching me a very valuable lesson

Sincerely

Anne

I can see how easy it was to get in a muddle with this one!

I am pleased it is sorted for you now.

Prickles. x