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Maddie
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3 Dec 2013 11:16 |
wow thats a lot to take in and absorb. thank so much, your time is really appreciated best wishes maddie
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JoonieCloonie
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30 Nov 2013 18:44 |
just collecting info :-)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JW8V-Q43
Name: Hannah Peake Gender: Female Christening Date: 07 Jun 1795 Christening Place: EBENEZER-INDEPENDENT, RAMSGATE, KENT, ENGLAND Birth Date: 30 May 1794 Father's Name: Stephen Peake Mother's Name: Mary Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C06853-1
searching that batch, that couple also had Ann 1787 (must have died), John 1789, George 1791, Ann 1792 ... but I don't find any record for a Susan* Peake in Kent.
Sarah was 30 years older than Hannah. They must have had different mothers. To marry a widower born c1774 in 1809, Susanne should have been born before 1788 ...
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNFN-YJG ?
Name: Stephen Peake Spouse's Name: Mary Dixon Event Date: 31 Dec 1786 Event Place: St. Lawrence, Kent, England Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I06790-7
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJ3Z-GQ7
Name: Susannah Peake Gender: Female Christening Date: 13 Dec 1772 Christening Place: St. Lawrence, Kent, England Father's Name: Stephen Peake Mother's Name: Jane Peake Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I00979-2
and her sister Sarah
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JSQL-6Q7
Name: Sarah Peake Gender: Female Christening Date: 03 Feb 1771 Christening Place: St. Laurence, Kent, England Father's Name: Stephen Peake Mother's Name: Jane Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I06892-7
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JZLF-ZMF
Name: Susannah White Gender: Female Burial Place: Cowes, Hampshire, England Death Date: 21 Mar 1835 Age: 63 Birth Date: 1772 Indexing Project (Batch) Number: B05199-4
and there we are for Susannah Peake White I think: born in Kent 1772 married to Thomas White the shipbulder in Middlesex in 1809 died in Hampshire 1835
Her parents were Stephen and Jane Peake. Her half-sister Hannah's mother was Mary Dixon.
There seems to have been some mix-up on Thomas Sr's baptism record showing Hannah as his mother ... unless the mixing up was going on in real life! - edit - oops I meant Thomas Jr's baptism record 1819, his mother should have been Susannah Peake White whose younger sister was Hannah Peake.
but still Susannah would not likely have been your Richard's mother since he was likely born before that 1809 marrage.
so the question is, who was the previous wife of Thomas White Sr, born abt 1774 we don't know where, married the second (?) time in Whitechapel in 1809.
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JoonieCloonie
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30 Nov 2013 17:55 |
hm
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N6GB-T52
Name: Thomas White Gender: Male Christening Date: 03 Oct 1819 Christening Place: Newchurch, Hampshire, England Father's Name: Thomas White Mother's Name: Hanah Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C01874-5
I think it's possible for a Susannah to be called Hannah. Could Hannah Peake in 1841 be Susanne Peake from the marriage record to Thomas White, simply recorded under her mother's surname via a not uncommon sort of enumerator misunderstanding?
But here is the household in 1851 in Newchurch, Cowes
Thomas White 77 born Broadstairs Kent, retired shipbuilder Caroline White 23 granddaughter Sarah Peake 81 born Manston Kent, sister-in-law unmarried Hannah Peake 56 born Ramsgate Kent, sister-in-law unmarried Henry Bell Brown 42 visitor Wesleyan minister Emily Salter 23 servant Caroline Beere 17 servant
a possibility ... it happened in my family right around 1820 ... it was illegal for a man to marry his deceased wife's sister. Was Thomas Sr actually partnered with Hannah Peake, the sister of his deceased wife Susanne?
searching in that batch at familysearch
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=+batch_number:C01874-5
finds only the one baptism, Thomas 1819 with parents Thomas and Hanah.
Richard would most likely have been born in Middlesex perhaps.
In 1861 Thomas R White, 41, ship builder, born Cowes, is in Portsmouth with wife Anne and children Elizabeth and Tom.
thiswould seem likely to be the death of Thomas Sr (but something in the data has been mistranscribed)
Deaths Mar 1859 White Thomas I.Wight 2b 331
and the death of Sarah Peake (much older sister of Hannah)
Deaths Mar 1856 Peake Sarah I Wight 2b 292
to which someone has added a postem at freebmd ... and left no contact info !!!
'Isle of Wight Observer (Ryde, England), Saturday, March 01, 1856; Issue 183. at the residence of Thomas White, esq, Medina Docks, Miss Sarah Peake, aged 86 years, respected through life as a consistant Christian.'
that is the only Peake event in Isle of Wight until that point.
You could always add another postem to that record asking for information about the family ... and giving a (permanent) email address :-) It is very possible though that the person who added the info was just a local researcher or some such.
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JoonieCloonie
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30 Nov 2013 17:35 |
Excellent! and one can only wish you well in tracing your Richard (and Sarah) now :-)
At least you can be pretty sure that there were a Frederick and a Thomas in his family, as brothers or as father and brother. I have not managed to find any trace of them in 1841 or 1851, ... wait, maybe looking in the wrong places
'Atalanta was built by Thomas White, at Cowes, in 1836 and had sleeping berths for 150 passengers'
In 1851 there is a widowed Sarah White 44 born Isle of Wight, in Cowes, whose eldest Harry 21 son is a shipwright's apprentice. But no ... in 1841 they are in Northwood on the Isle of Wight and father George is a brewer ...
Not knowing place names on the Isle of Wight I searched 1841 for White in Hampshire with keyword Wight.
And look what I found.
Name: THOMAS WHITE Age: 67 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1774 (not born in county) Civil Parish: Northwood County/Island: Hampshire Registration District: Isle of Wight Sub-registration District: Cowes
Thomas White 67 SHIP BUILDER Elizabeth White 25 Thomas White 21 Ship Builder James Beck 23 ditto Hannah Peake 40 not born in county Sarah Peake 60 not born in county Thomas Cornfield 30 Optician Sophia Coss 18 Female Servant
I would bet that this Thomas Sr was your Richard's father, in fact I would bet quite a lot :-)
unfortunately he seems to be widowed. I wonder whether Sarah Peake was his mother-in-law and Hannah his wife's sister.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJVM-35Q
Name: Thomas White Spouse's Name: Susanne Peake Event Date: 02 Apr 1809 Event Place: Whitechapel, Middlesex, England Marital Status: Widowed Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00066-5
which would most likely mean that Susanne was not your Richard's mother as he was most likely born before 1809, although dob 1806 in 1851 could have meant as late as early 1811.
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Maddie
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29 Nov 2013 15:30 |
Hi JoonieCloonie, just to let you know it looks like the right Richard stumbled across Ellen Maria's mariage announcement
Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries
Publication:Hampshire Telegraph Publication date:Saturday 01 October 1864
Article text:"of Is Thomas Hitt Harvey, of Weymouth, to Ellen Maria, y, eldest daughter of the late Captain Richard White, of C. Southampton. N. HALr-BARNEs-On the 28th ult., at St. John's, Upper h, Holloway, by the Rev. S. D. Stubbs, x.±., Thomas Hale, y, jun., the
Maddie
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Maddie
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28 Nov 2013 11:40 |
Morning, thats the trouble with such a common name trying to link them together. Will keep me quiet for a while :-)
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JoonieCloonie
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27 Nov 2013 20:22 |
Hey check this out too (I am supposed to be working but this is more fun)
http://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/Watersprite
'On Saturday 7 July 1827, under the command of Captain Frederick White, the Watersprite, a 162-ton paddle steamer, arrived at St Helier with the first official mail carried by a steamer.'
Sarah's oldest son in 1841 was called Frederick. So ... father? brother? of Richard?
They all have to be related, Thomas and Frederick and Richard. But there were a lot of Whites in Jersey. :-)
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JoonieCloonie
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27 Nov 2013 16:10 |
You're very welcome, and it is indeed fascinating, which makes it no trouble at all. :-D
I hope you get the certificate and come back and let us know!
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Maddie
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27 Nov 2013 15:31 |
thanks so much, i do need the certificate. I really appreciate the time and trouble you have taken to help. Some fascinating info to delve into
best wishes Maddie
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JoonieCloonie
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27 Nov 2013 15:25 |
yes, born in England:
1841 in St Helier on vessels, the Atalanta Rich'd White, 35, Mariner, born England
note that I think I then ruled out that Sarah Compton marriage probably, unfortunately ...
and note that in 1851 and 1861 your Sarah says she is from London Middlesex, not Hampshire
Those articles refer to the original owner of the Atalanta as Thomas White ... father, brother? I looked in censuses for him, only found in 1841 on board the Royal Navy Basker (?) in St Helier, a Robert aged 60 and a Thomas aged 50, born in England, not likely connected.
I wonder whether Thomas was the original owner in 1836 and died.
but this is all surmise and assumption at this point -- the birth certificate for Bernice will give you both parents' names father's occupation and you really need that information before trying to go back any further!
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Maddie
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27 Nov 2013 15:14 |
wow, how did you find that :-) 1841 census explains why he is not with the family and the marriage seems highly likely as Sarah was from Hampshire. Been trying to find 1841 census, does it say whether or not Richard born in county
thank you for all the info, got some interesting reading
regards Maddie
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JoonieCloonie
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27 Nov 2013 14:59 |
for info this is Sarah in 1861 in Millbrook Hampshire I think
the page itself is a complete hash with two people entered on each line
Sarah White 50 fundholder born London Middlesex Allen White 24 this is Ellen, born Jersey Richard White 13 scholar born Hampshire (I can't read the town)
If she was Sarah Compton, it's too bad she was so free with her age in censuses - she was 36 in 1841 (seems exact since it was supposed to be rounded down to 35), 44 in 1851 and 50 in 1861.
familysearch shows one Sarah Compton baptised 1800 in St Martin in the Fields London but there could have been any number more I imagine
since your Sarah had a child about 1848 she was likely born later than that
I think you can rule out the marriage I suggested earlier In 1851, Richard White 49 Greenwich Pensioner and Sarah White 46 born in Alverstoke are living in Portsea
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JoonieCloonie
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27 Nov 2013 14:27 |
That SA archives site is definitely anything but easy to navigate :-)
If you do want to know Ellen's parents' names you need to get a birth certificate for one of the younger children in England. It will at least tell you that child's mother's and father's full names. There is no guarantee that Ellen's parents will be the same but it will give you a starting point to look for marriage, death, etc.
There was a son Richard in the household in 1851
Sarah White 44 Ellen White 15 Bernice White 9 Richard White 3 Mary Ramsey 26 John Ramsey 1 Mo
so father Richard is a possibility ... and he could have died sometime from before son Richard was born up to the 1851 census ...
He could also have been military ... this marriage might be one to consider
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NFPQ-7ZH
Name: Richard White Spouse's Name: Sarah Compton Event Date: 28 Mar 1826 Event Place: Alverstoke, Southampton, Hampshire, England Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04160-4
That would make sense as he might have been stationed in St Helier but the couple were actually from Hampshire, or at least Sarah was.
In fact check this out
1841 in St Helier on vessels, the Atalanta Rich'd White, 35, Mariner, born England
it must have been a steamer carrying passengers to the mainland or some such, since the other people on board include 7 mariners, 4 fireman and a stewardess. Richard seems to have been the master since he is listed first.
(Note that Ancestry has messed up the household as usual - its transcription shows the first person in the 'household' as Louisa Russel a stewardess but in fact she is the last person in the previous list on board the Camilla).
and we google "the atalanta" jersey helier and find
http://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/The_island_changes
Steamship services The English immigrants would have nothing of such restrictions and soon cheap but fashionable clothing began to arrive on the new steamship services inaugurated in 1824. By 1840 the growth in the number of ships plying the cross-Channel routes was remarkable. The Atalanta left Southampton every Tuesday and Friday evening, returning from Jersey every Monday and Thursday. The Lady de Saumarez left Southampton every Monday and Thursday, returning every Wednesday and Saturday. There were also connections twice a week to St Malo and Granville.
and my goodness
http://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/Watersprite
Race This account from the Star records a race between the lengthened Watersprite and Atalanta: "She [Atalanta]is unquestionably one of the finest boats that ever ploughed the British Channel. A trial of speed between her and his Majesty's packet Wildfire, Capt White, Commander, took place on Tuesday, which more than ever served to display the superiority of the Atalanta. The former vessel was some months since lengthened by Messrs White, of Cowes, and new and powerful machinery put into her, by which her speed was so accelerated that Capt White declared he would not fear to run her with the Atalanta. An opportunity offered last Tuesday, both vessels having to start from Jersey for this island at six o'clock in the morning. The weather was remarkably propitious for a trial of this nature, there being scarcely wind enough out to cause a ripple on the water. The Wildfire had six minutes start of the Atalanta, but the latter vessel overtook her a short distance off Corbière Point, and arrived here 16 minutes before her, making a difference of 22 minutes on the passage.
so I change the link to Atalanta from Watersprite and sure enough it has its own page
http://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/Atalanta
where it says, among other things:
Atalanta was built by Thomas White, at Cowes, in 1836 and had sleeping berths for 150 passengers. Kevin Le Scelleur, in his definitive work Channel Island Railway Steamers describes Atlanta as 'one of the most famous vessels on the Channel Islands service'.
this has the makings of a theory, what do you think??
if you do that google search
"the atalanta" jersey helier
you will find all kinds of things to read, and also pictures (there is one at the Atalanta page linked above)
check out this newspaper account (from a later date) of the building and launching of the ship for instance
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/3/3b/Er19020328.pdf
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Maddie
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27 Nov 2013 10:51 |
thank you for finding his death record for me. I always have trouble sorting out those sort of sites. So the family went back to South Africa. I will have to see if I can find out when.
i found a site yesterday for St Helier and Ellens parents were named as Richard and Sara but couldn't find a marriage on it. Possibly married elsewhere.
thank you all very much Maddie
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JoonieCloonie
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26 Nov 2013 18:09 |
Unfortunately the 1841 White household doesn't have a husband either
Name: Sarah A White Age: 36 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1805 Gender: Female street address Winchester Terrace Civil Parish: St Mary Hundred: Southampton Town County/Island: Hampshire
Sarah A White 36 E M White 5 Federich White 1 Toben White 3 (probably says John)
so if Sarah was already widowed, or not actually married, she had children after that with someone other than Mr White.
The neighbours include several engineers and a mariner, and the visitor in the White household in 1851 was an engineer's wife. Perhaps if there was a Mr White that is what he was as well (and he was on vessels in the 1841 census).
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JoonieCloonie
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26 Nov 2013 17:59 |
'his mother was Ellen Maria White, her parents not known as she was born in St Helier in 1836, in 1851 with her mother Sarah White.'
but in 1851 there are other children, a birth certificate for Bernice for instance would give the parents' names
Births Jun 1842 White Bernice Southampton 7 187
although given the gap between Ellen and Bernice it is possible that Ellen was from a previous marriage, either of Sarah or of Sarah's deceased husband
of course the marriage certificate of Ellen Maria White and William Dunning Harvey, South Stoneham 1864, would give Ellen's father's name if she knew and reported it and possibly more details about him.
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JoonieCloonie
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26 Nov 2013 17:40 |
Here is a reference to Percy's death in South Africa
go here
http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300dl
and select
All Archives Repositories and National Registers of non-public records
then search for percy harvey
DEPOT TAB SOURCE MHG TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 0 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 3201/52 PART 1 DESCRIPTION HARVEY, PERCY MELROSE. STARTING 19520000 ENDING 19520000 REMARKS SURVIVING SPOUSE UNA HARVEY.
so he died in 1952
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AnnCardiff
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26 Nov 2013 17:39 |
Name: Sarah White Event Type: Census Event Date: 1861 Gender: Female Age: 59 Relationship to Head of Household: Head Birthplace: ... Schedule Type: Household Registration District: Jersey Sub-District: Ecclesiastical Parish: Jersey Parish: St Helier Residence County: Jersey
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Maddie
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26 Nov 2013 16:06 |
yes thats my tree' family came home a few months earlier maddie
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KempinaPartyhat
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26 Nov 2013 15:46 |
There is a tree on an**** with this man in it ...is this your tree?
he returned alone in 1931
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