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Thank you very much 'Jude' and Gins.

Goodness me, a bit of scandal - that's good!

It really must be Elizabeth's sister, as she has same name for her father and moved to Birmingham - I am guessing came to visit or be with Elizabeth.

I am unable to go any further with this I think, but it has certainly added some interest to my tree!

Much appreciated.

Jan x

Spinster is crossed out and Widower instead :-)

Oooer.........was Margaret a naughty girl

She re-married and Philip was still around



1861 England Census


Name:Phillip Harriss

Age:52

Estimated Birth Year:abt 1809

Relation:Brother

Gender:Male

Where born:Sambridgeworth, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish:Hackney St John

Ecclesiastical parish:West Hackney

County/Island:Middlesex

Registration District:Hackney

Sub-registration District:West Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel:3


Household Schedule Number:224
Piece:154
Folio:73
Page Number:43

Household Members:

Charlotte Burges 64
Phillip Harriss 52 <<<Married!

The full transcript

Name: Margaret Harris
[Margaret Chesterman]
Gender: Female
Birth Year: abt 1819
Marriage Date: 30 Jul 1854
Marriage Age: 35
Marriage Place: Birmingham, St Philip, Warwickshire, England
Spouse: Ward Bassett
Spouse Gender: Male
Spouse Marriage Age: 41
Father: Thomas Chesterman
Spouse's Father: John Bassett
Reference Number: DRO 25
Archive Roll: M56

witnesses John and Eliza Bassett.

Thanks for looking Gins. The image of the above is terrible isn't it. Not much hope for Elizabeth I fear.

However, I would like an opinion about this if anybody fancies it!

I decided to look at the witnesses to the marriage of Elizabeth to Thomas Browning - namely Philip and Margaret Harris. Not too hopeful as such common names. BUT! Against all the odds this popped up!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Philip Harris
Name: Philip Harris
Spouse Name: Margaret Chesterman
Record Type: Banns
Event Date: 3 Jun 1832
Parish: Shoreditch St Leonard
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Register

I suspect this is her - Elizabeth also puts Kingsland as birthplace on one census:

1851 England Census about Margaret Harris
Name: Margaret Harris
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Phillip Harris
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Kingsland, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: West Hackney
County/Island: Middlesex

Registration District: Hackney
Sub-registration District: West Hackney

Phillip Harris 47
Margaret Harris 35

And then there is this! She must be a sister surely?? Or am I going mad again?

Birmingham, England, Marriages and Banns
Name: Margaret Harris
[Margaret Chesterman]
Spouse: Ward Bassett
Father: Thomas Chesterman
Birth: year
Marriage: date - city, Warwickshire

Not that it helps with Elizabeth, but still...

Jan

There is this one but the image is so poor

1841

Name:Elizabeth

Age:20

Estimated Birth Year:abt 1821

Gender:Female

Where born:Middlesex, England

Civil Parish:St John Hackney

Hundred:Ossulstone (Tower Division)

County/Island:Middlesex

Registration District:Hackney

Sub-registration District:Hackney


Piece:698
Book:3
Folio:40
Page Number:6

Household Members:


Elizabeth 20
15

Hi Gins.

Yes, that's the one. I did this research quite a while back, and must have had a mad moment - I saved an 1841 census for a totally different family! (Father William, watchmaker, der). It's without doubt incorrect, apart from anything else this family is there in 1851 complete with daughter Elizabeth!!

Thanks for the baptism, must be the right one I think.

I have had no joy whatsoever finding them in 1841 though.
If you have time, any assistance would be much appreciated.

However, I am expecting visitors literally any moment, so please excuse me if you do reply and I don't get back for some time.
Thanks a million for help so far.

Jan

Jan

Is it this woman that you are having trouble with?



London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921


Name:
Elizabeth Chertirman
[Elizabeth Chesterman]

Age:Full Age

Spouse Name:Thomas Browning

Record Type:Marriage
Event Date:23 Jul 1843

Parish:Shoreditch St Leonard

Borough:Hackney

Father Name:Thomas Chertirman

Spouse Father Name:Thomas Browning

Register Type:Parish Register




London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name:Elizabeth Chesterman

Record Type:Baptism

Baptism Date:11 Apr 1821

Father's Name:Thomas Chesterman <<Labourer

Mother's Name:Elizabeth Chesterman

Parish or Poor Law Union:Hackney St John

Borough:Hackney

Register Type:Parish Registers

You know Tess, I have just had an idea regarding something which has puzzled me a bit. I know Annie's mother was Elizabeth Chesterman (now I know 100% I have the right Annie!). She married Thomas Browning in London (she was born there but his birthplace was unknown). His occ. is excavator on the cert so definitely the right marriage. They only ever appear together in 1851, after this she is a widow.

I have wondered why they ever moved to Birmingham at all, but of course - Thomas would have found plenty of work here if working on the canals. They did to & fro a bit judging by children's birthplaces.

She did settle in Birmingham once widowed rather than returning to her family, but as her older children were working (one skilled as a gun fitter) I imagine that would explain it.

Still having probs with Elizabeth though ... any offers?? Cheeky!

Jan

Thank you Gins and Tess.

Tess - navvy, of course! And you must know Birmingham has more canals than Venice ... !

Gins, thanks for that info. It looks like the brothers married sisters doesn't it. And the existence of brother John reaffirms my research.

Please don't go the trouble of looking up any more though, as my reason for checking William out was to double-check I had the right family for my gg grandmother Ann(ie) Browning. I had her on a census with John, William etc. but there was another Annie Browning born about the same time so always had a bit of a niggle with it. And no father on any census after her birth.

However, the family lived in Inge St. in 1871 so the address confirms I was on the right track. She also put her father as an excavator on her marriage cert, which obviously fits with what is on William's marriage (now Tess has set me right!).

I do have some probs taking her mother's family back though, if you want a bit of work!!

Jan x

Jan

This looks like a sibling to William, and Thomas is listed as a 'labourer' Same address as Andy posted



Birmingham, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1937

Name:John Browning

Gender:Male

Marriage Date:1 Oct 1871

Marriage Age:Full

Marriage Place:Birmingham, St Martin, Warwickshire, England

Spouse:Alice Atkins

Spouse Gender:Female

Spouse Marriage Age:Full

Father:Thomas Browning

Spouse's Father:George Atkins

Reference Number:DRO 34

Archive Roll:M122



On William Browning' baptism record in London, his fathers occupation is 'Navigator'

Navigator could mean that he was working on the canals, probably digging them out. (or excavating).

This is where the term navvies comes from.

Thanks very much Andy, I shall do that.
Jan

If you want a copy of the image, PM me your email address and I'll send it straight from Ancestry.

Andy

1871 census

William Browning 26 Gun barrel filer, born London
Elizabeth Browning 25 Born London
Clara M Browning 6 Months
Alice Atkins 20 Sister in Law, born Coventry, Pearl Button Driller

Andy

Sorry, posted before you had chance to edit I think!
Must be mine, Inge St. is the right address.
Thank you.
Jan

Thanks Andy.
May I just impose a little more please, if you don't mind? I wonder if you are able to see the image? I am just wondering if Thomas is recorded as navigator or if it might by any chance say excavator?
Thanks so much.
Jan

Birmingham, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1937
about William Browning

Name:William Browning Gun Barrel filer
Gender:Male
Marriage Date:25 Dec 1866
Marriage Age:Full
Marriage Place:Birmingham, St Martin, Warwickshire, England
Spouse:Elizabeth Atkins
Spouse Gender:Female
Spouse Marriage Age:Full
Father:Thomas Browning Navigator
Spouse's Father:George Atkins Watch Maker
Reference Number:DRO 34
Archive Roll:M121


Address looks like Inge Street

Witnesses Michael Brislin(?), Elizabeth Browning

Andy

Please would someone be kind enough to check this for me? I only have basic A**ry membership (I was a bit surprised to see this, had no idea B'ham records had appeared!):

Birmingham, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1937 Marriage & Divorce View Image
Name: William Browning
Spouse: Elizabeth Atkins
Father: Thomas Browning
Marriage: date - city, Warwickshire

Many thanks.

Jan