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Lesley ............

just to say that my maternal gr grandfather's sister had 5 children, and was never married.

the family was never mentioned!

I found out about the children after I had begun researching my family.

They were all born between about 1885 and 1900

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915

Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1889
Registration District: Amersham
Inferred County: Buckinghamshire
Volume Number: 3a
Page Number: 875
Records on Page: Name
William Brandon
Dan Goodall
Ann Harding
Elizabeth Mead



I wonder if this is them. "Better late than never" :-)

Hello Marie Celeste and Moira,

Of the four births, I ordered the youngest and eldest birth certs. They have just arrived and there is no father in the relevant box. It seems you were both right and the 4 children were illegimate. Many thanks for all your help.

Lesley

Lesley - order from here, they cost £9.25 inc postage (cheaper than from a register office)

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

You have to create an account but it's useful once set up.

When you get to the part where you enter the details there's a box to tick if GRO reference known (that's the volume and page number from the record you'll have found).

Does anyone know how to order a certificate online or by phone...I have got the relevant details but am unsure how to proceed.

Will do Marie Celeste and thank you for your help.

Lesley

My great Grandmother put down her Grandfather as her father when she got married. I had an ongoing argument with another researcher for months about it so I know what you mean...don't you just love researching - you never quite know what will turn up and it usually is not what you expect anyway....

Do come back and let us know what it says when you get the certs.

Sorry Lesley, just noticed your question about Henry George Harding and marriage certificate. I'm afraid the only way is to get a copy to see what he has actually said.

Some people invent fathers on marriage certificates to save face with the in-laws, some put the name of a grandfather or stepfather, sometimes father's name is just blank and sometimes they tell the truth.

Thanks everyone, I will send for the birth certificates of the first and last of the 4 children and see what turns up.....

Lesley

My Mother-in-law was one of 11 children born out of wedlock and non of the children were christened, some bore the fsthers surname and some the mothers maiden name. It took me 4 years and a lot of help from many people on Gr to sort it out

Just another thing Lesley, it does look on the 1891 that Dan Goodall has acknowledged them as his children as they are listed in the Harding name but relationship for all 5 is son/daughter:

GOODALL, Dan Head Married M 43 1848 Sawyer Basingstoke, Hampshire
GOODALL, Ann Wife Married F 34 1857 Bead Worker Seer Green, Buckinghamshire
HARDING, Henry Son Single M 15 1876 Agricultural Labourer Seer Green, Buckinghamshire
HARDING, Florence Daughter Single F 13 1878 Bead Worker Seer Green, Buckinghamshire
HARDING, Bertie Son M 10 1881 Scholar Seer Green, Buckinghamshire
HARDING, Daisy Daughter F 6 1885 Scholar Seer Green, Buckinghamshire
HARDING, Dan Son M 3 1888 Scholar Seer Green, Buckinghamshire

Piece: 1132 Folio: 78 Page: 2
Registration District: Amersham
Civil Parish: Seer Green

Address: Hall Place, Seer Green County: Buckinghamshire

Ok - guess you are right - many thanks anyway......

Lesley

Never say never Lesley!

There were many couples who lived together for many years and brought up large familes and had never troubled the vicar.

The birth certificates are going to be your only answer.

I find it hard to believe that Ann had four children out of wedlock and was on the census as unmarried. Ann a widow was just a speculation that perhaps the four children were from another sibling who died and the widow Ann then married Dan Goodall. I have seen one or two children illegitimate but never four...

Henry George Harding married Minnie Eliza Cousins in 1874, would his father be on the certificate or might be have put down Dan Goodall as his father??

Lesley, how have you established Ann as a widow?

I would interpret that census as Ann having had the children out of wedlock, perhaps Dan was actually the father.

EDIT: You've obviously found the children's birth records so buying even one of the birth certificates may answer the question.

That 1881 for reference - I read it as Ann possibly being their mother, not their aunt:

HARDING, Eliza Head Widow F 60 1821 Lacemaker Amersham, Buckinghamshire
DUMBARTON, William Son Single M 33 1848 Woodman Amersham, Buckinghamshire
HARDING, Ann Daughter Single F 25 1856 Trimming Maker Seer Green, Buckinghamshire
HARDING, John Son Single M 23 1858 Ag Lab Seer Green, Buckinghamshire
HARDING, Henry G Grand Son Single M 6 1875 Scholar Seer Green, Buckinghamshire
HARDING, Florence Grand Daughter Single F 3 1878 Scholar Seer Green, Buckinghamshire
HARDING, Bertie Grand Son Single M 0 1881 Seer Green, Buckinghamshire
GOODALL, Dan Boarder Single M 33 1848 Sawyer Oakley, Hampshire
GOODALL, Thomas Boarder Single M 30 1851 Sawyer Basingstoke, Hampshire

Piece: 1455 Folio: 93 Page: 12
Registration District: Amersham
Civil Parish: Seer Green

Address: ?, Seer Green County: Buckinghamshire

Hi,

I have four children on the 1881 census down as grandchildren, dates are from the birth records not the census...
Henry George born april 1876 Amersham
Florence july 1877 Amersham
Bertie 1880 Amersham
Daisy july 1884 Amersham

On the 1891 census, they are down as children of Dan Goodall and wife Anne. On the 1881 census, Anne would be their unmarried aunt, unless they are children of another sibling now deceased and widow Ann has married Dan Goodall - who just happens to be on the 1881 census as a boarder.

Can anyone help with these childrens parents as I am struggling....trying to get this tree right for my son in laws birthday which is very soon...

thank you for any help

Lesley