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WILLIAM BUNDY (Detective L 25). On Friday morning, 10th June, at 12.30, I was in Webber Street—I pushed open the door of the Coburg Arms and saw the two prisoners there, in company with a third man—they were drinking together—I was told of the burglary, and I gave a description of the men—on the following Sunday I pointed Hibbell out to Sharpe—had seen them frequently before—I never saw Anderson in any other coat but a black frock—they had black felt hats on, with rather broadish brims—Hibbell was wearing just the same kind of clothes as he is wear-ing now.

Witness for the Defence.

WILLIAM BANKS . I live at 32, St. George's Road, Southwark—I have known Anderson two months or a little longer—I am a scale-maker—Anderson was in my company when taken into custody—I said to the officer "What does this mean?" he said "This man is charged with breaking into a pawnshop in the New Cut." I said "When did this happen?" he said
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"On Friday morning between 1 and 2 o'clock. I said "Well, I can clear him of that, for he slept with me on the Thursday night, we were together till 1.30 on the Friday morning," and he said "I cannot go home to-night I must go and get a lodging;" I said "I am sleeping by myself, you can come with me for the night," and he did so—he was in my company up to 9.30—I am positive he never left my company only for a minute or two—my house is about a mile from the prosecutor's.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you go into the Coburg Arms? A. No—I first met the prisoner in the Tower public-house—I had never slept with him before—I was the first to tell the constable he had slept with me—32, St. George's Road is a broker's-shop—I know a man named Roche, but I do not know where he is now—I do not know a man named Leonard—I heard Roche had got ten years—I know a man named Hurley, and I believe he is in trouble—I have come up here on my own account, having seen the deposition.

COURT. Q. How did you see the depositions? A. The sister of this man got the depositions and asked me to read them.

MR. BOTTOMLEY. Q. Were you at the Police Court at the time of the examination? A. I was not, neither inside nor out.

COURT. Q. Are you quite certain you were not there? A. I am quite certain.

Witnesses in Reply.

MATTHIAS SHARPE (recalled). I know the last witness well—I was at the examination at the Police Court—he was there—I spoke to him, and he said "What are you going to do with Heunessy," meaning Anderson.

WILLIAM BUNDY (recalled). I was at the examination before the Migis-trate—I saw Banks in Court, in company with a woman of the name of Hennessy.

THOMAS PHELAN (recalled). I was at the examination at the Police Court—I saw Banks outside the Court, with some woman.

SAMUEL WATTS (recalled). I saw Banks at the Police Court.

HIBBELL GUILTY — Eighteen Months' Imprisonment.

ANDERSON GUILTY *— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

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Version 7.1 | April 2013

© 2003-2013 Old Bailey Proceedings Online

HENRY HIBBELL, JOHN ANDERSON, Theft > burglary, 11th July 1870.

Reference Number: t18700711-616
Offence: Theft > burglary
Verdict: Guilty > no_subcategory; Guilty > no_subcategory
Punishment: Imprisonment > no_subcategory; Imprisonment > penal servitude
Corrections: Add a correction
Actions: Cite this text | Print-friendly version
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616. HENRY HIBBELL (23), and JOHN ANDERSON (26) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of John Ramus, and stealing therein eighteen knives and other articles, his property.

MR. BOTTOMLEY conducted the Prosecution; MR. BROMBY defended Hibbell and MR. STRAIGHT Anderson.

JOHN RAMUS . I am a pawnbroker at 55, Charlotte Terrace, Lambeth—about 2 o'clock on Friday morning, 10th June, I heard a noise of something smashing—I went down stairs and disturbed the assistant, who slept in the shop—we made a search but could find nothing—I went to bed again—the boy came to me, and in consequence of what he said I went down and waited at the door till a policeman came—when we opened the inside case we discovered that a hole had been cut in the shutter, and the plate-glass shattered—the goods were all distributed about—I missed about half a dozen knives and two or three meerschaum pipes—anyone could have reached them by putting an arm through the shutter—this is the plan of the panel that was cut (produced)—I was last to bed the night previously and the shop was securely barred then.

GEORGE HARRIS . I am a coffee-shop keeper, of 24, Charlotte Terrace—that is about 60ft. from Mr. Ramus's on the opposite side—about 1 o'clock on Friday morning, 10th June, I was standing at my door—I saw two men go up to Mr. Ramus's shop—they did something and went away—there was another man on the opposite side and he joined them at the comer of Eaton Street—in a minute or two they went back to the shop—I was inside my shop then, looking through the window—they went to the shutters, went away and came back again—I heard a noise like a large crushing of glass, or something of the sort—the two men were at the shop then—I only saw their side-faces—they wore black felt hate, black coats, and the trowsere were something dark, but I could not say what they were—I gave a description to the police, and on Sunday afternoon I went to the police-station and there saw eight or ten men—I picked Hibbell out as one of the men I saw on that morning—on Sunday night I was again called to the station, when I picked Anderson out of about eight men—I said I fancied he was the man, but I could not say for certain—he on had a high hat then, and that made the difference—to my knowledge I had never seen the men before—I do not think I hare any doubt about the two prisoners being the men.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. How long were you watching these men at the shutters? A. About a quarter of an hour—I did not take any particular notice of them until I heard the crash—I said before the Magistrate that I could not say candidly whether Anderson was the other man or not—I did not say at the police-station, pointing to Anderson, "That is not the man"—it was about 1.15 when I heard the crash, as near as I can say—I had no watch.
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SAMUEL WATTS (Policeman L 220). On Friday morning, 10th June, I on duty in New Cut—about 1.30 I heard A noise like the falling of a shutter bar—I saw two men run from the shop across the Cut—I ran across the Cut into Marlborough Street, thinking I should meet them by Christ Church Workhouse, but I did not—I spoke to 99l., and pursued my search, but did not find them—I then went to Mr. Ramus's shop and found a hole had been cut in the shutter—I was about fifty or sixty yards from them when they ran away—they were dressed in dark clothes—to the best of my belief, according to the height and dress, the prisoners are the men—I did not know them before.

MATHHIAS SHARPE (Policeman L 99). On Friday morning, 10th June, about 2 o'clock, I was in Pontypool Place, that is about two minutes walk from the prosecutor's—I saw Hibbell, Anderson, and a woman there—the woman said the did not like going through back turnings, and Hibbell said "Come on, this is the nearest way"—I met Watts in Marlborough Street, and then I went across to prosecutor's shop—I have known Anderson for about four months, but I do not recollect seeing Hibbell before—the witness Harris gave me a description of the men—I was in Lower Marsh on Sunday morning, with Bundy—I saw Hibbell there, and took him into custody—I said "I am going to take you into custody for boring a hole in Mr. Rumus's shutter"—he said "You are wrong this time, I am innocent of this charge"—I took him to the station, where he was placed among seven or eight others, and Harris came and picked him out—Hibbell said he was in bed and asleep at the time—I asked him where, and he said "58, York Street, York Road."

Cross-examined by MR. BRINDLEY. Q. Is this New Cut a very frequented neighbourhood? A. Yes, very.

THOMAS PHELAN (Policeman L 63). About 6.30, on the 12th June, I went to the Tower public-house—I saw Sharpe there, and in consequence of what he said I went into the public-house, and told Anderson I wanted to speak to him outside—he came out—there was a man with him named Banks—I told the prisoner he would be charged with boring a hole in Mr. Ramus's shutter on the 10th—he said "Are you getting this up for me?"—I said "No, I am getting nothing up for you"—he said "I slept with that gentleman (pointing to Banks) on the night you mention"—I said "What is his name?"—he said "I do not know his name"—I said "Where did you sleep?"—he said "In the neighbourhood of the St. George's Road"—I have known him about four months.

Thanks Ann, interesting read...

I have been in touch with the guy of the website before....

Jules x

Transcription page details
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First name: Henry

Last name: Hibwell

Age: 23

Year of birth: 1847

Occupation: Bricklayer

Date the court session started: 11 Jul 1870

Area of court: Surrey

Victims: John Ramus

Record source: Central Criminal Court: After Trial Calendars of Prisoners

The National Archives reference: CRIM9/16

There are 2 images available for this record

Crime, Prisons & Punishment


First name: Henry
Last name: Hibwell
Age: 23
Year of birth: 1847
Occupation: Bricklayer
Date the court session started: 11 Jul 1870
Area of court: Surrey
Victims: John Ramus
Record source: Central Criminal Court: After Trial Calendars of Prisoners
The National Archives reference: CRIM9/16

Crime, Prisons & Punishment


First name: John
Last name: Anderson
Age: 26
Year of birth: 1844
Occupation: Labourer
Date the court session started: 11 Jul 1870
Area of court: Surrey
Victims: John Ramus
Record source: Central Criminal Court: After Trial Calendars of Prisoners
The National Archives reference: CRIM9/16

Both for the theft of 18 knives from the house of John Ramus

have no idea if this is connected - found it whilst searching the web - a fascinating site on the Ramus fmily by the way

JOHN RAMUS . I am a pawnbroker at 55, Charlotte Terrace, Lambeth—about 2 o'clock on Friday morning, 10th June, I heard a noise of something smashing—I went down stairs and disturbed the assistant, who slept in the shop—we made a search but could find nothing—I went to bed again—the boy came to me, and in consequence of what he said I went down and waited at the door till a policeman came—when we opened the inside case we discovered that a hole had been cut in the shutter, and the plate-glass shattered—the goods were all distributed about—I missed about half a dozen knives and two or three meerschaum pipes—anyone could have reached them by putting an arm through the shutter—this is the plan of the panel that was cut (produced)—I was last to bed the night previously and the shop was securely barred then.'
John Anderson was found guilty and sentenced to, 'five years penal servitude'

Text-only) My Ramus Family tree
My Ramus Family tree (To any members of the Ramus family connected to this tree, please feel free to contact me at [email protected] , as I would love to find ...
text.wolf-e-boy.net/My-Ramus-Family-?tree - Cached