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Hi MarieCeleste,

Sydney Hales was my husband's father.

Hi Wendy, which of William and Louisa's children is your direct line?

Thank you all so much for your help. I am hoping to find the identity of the young William Hales but I do know that in later life he was definitely married to Louisa Woodman and had several children.We also have photos of him driving a vehicle, so he was a car man for sure. I have also looked for a possible twin brother (Henry) but cannot identify him at all. Maybe he died young. We have not been able to find a birth certificate for William either, so maybe he was never registered.

Wendy

New poster - friendly message on how to return to thread sent. :-)

Still can't find William in 1891. I did find the address he gave when married, it was 68 Maxted Road but he's not there in 1891.

I'll leave for now the info I posted which appears to be another William and Louisa Hales, just in case.

I couldn't make out the occupation for sure but (oil trade) suggested carman!!

But I still can't find him in 1891 - only 1891 I can find is as a crewman on (what I presume) is a barge on the Thames

William's occupation on that 1901 is carman (oil trade) which certainly matches the marriage.

This is the correspondng 1901 in Wendy's tree

Name: William Hales
[William Hales nee Woodman]
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa Hales
Gender: Male
Where born: Clapham, London, England
Civil parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints Blenheim Grove
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Peckham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 192
Piece: 504
Folio: 23
Page Number: 33
Household Members:
Name Age
William Hales 31
Louisa Hales 20
Rosey Hales 7
William Hales 3
Maud Woodman 20
Emily Akhurst 18

They married in 1892 but she doesn't have Martha, William or Henry in 1891 (and I can't find him either)

That's interesting Jude. On the original of that 1911 he's a night HORSE keeper, which ties in with ostler, carman, and horsekeeper (other census and marriage record).

He could have been double counted in 1911 if staying overnight at sisters.

However, the children don't tie up to the 1901 so I could be off at a complete tangent.

This is the 1911 Wendy has in her tree

Name: William Hales
Age in 1911: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil parish: Camberwell
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 15 Ophir Terrace, Basing Road, Peckham SE
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: NIGHT HOUSE KEEPER
Registration district: Camberwell
Registration District Number: 27
Sub-registration district: Peckham South
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Piece: 2571
Household Members:
Name Age
William Hales 42
Louisa Hales 38
Rosey Hales 17
Willie Hales 12
Freddie Hales 7
Siddie Hales 4
Lilley Parks 22

Is this the correct William in 1911?

O BRIEN, Henry Head Married28 years M 52 1859 Painter Holton London
O BRIEN, Emily Wife Married F 49 1862 Holloway N
O BRIEN, Emily Ellen Daughter Single F 24 1887 Metal Polisher Hackney
O BRIEN, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 18 1893 Machinist Holloway London
O BRIEN, Amelia Daughter Single F 16 1895 Syhons Works Holloway London
O BRIEN, Ruben Son M 13 1898 School Islington N
O BRIEN, Frederick Son M 11 1900 School Islington N
HALES, William Brother To Wife Married M 39 1872 Horse Keeper Out Of Work Holloway

RG number: RG14 Piece: 946
Reference: RG14PN946 RG78PN32 RD10 SD6 ED44 SN135
Registration District: Islington
Sub District: Islington South East
Enumeration District: 44
Parish: Islington

Address: 54 Cornwall Cottages Popham St Islington N County: London
....................................................................................................................

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name: Emily Hales
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Age: 22
Spouse Name: Henry Obrien
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 30 Oct 1883
Parish: Shoreditch St Mark
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: William James Hales - cabinet maker
Spouse Father Name: Harry Obrien
Register Type: Parish Register

This is that family in 1861, note eldest child is Martha:

HALES, James Head Married M 36 1825 Labourer Islington
HALES, Sarah Wife Married F 31 1830 Cambridgeshire
HALES, Martha Daughter F 6 1855 Scholar Islington
HALES, Mary A Daughter F 5 1856 Scholar Islington
HALES, Elizabeth S Daughter F 2 1859 Scholar Islington
POTTER, Eliza Visitor Unmarried F 30 1831 Servant Islington

Piece: 136 Folio: 69 Page: 65
Registration District: Islington
Civil Parish: Islington

Address: 41, Upper Victoria Road, Islington County: London
...............................................................................................................

When Martha marries she gives father's full name:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Martha Rhoda Hales
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Age: 27
Spouse Name: James Ballard
Spouse Age: 35
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 17 Jul 1881
Parish: Islington St Thomas
Borough: Islington
Father Name: William James Hales - cabinet maker
Spouse Father Name: David Ballard
Register Type: Parish Register

Doesn't say he's deceased but depends if the question was asked.

Address is 29 Hollingsworth Street, as per the 1891 above.

I think this is the marriage of the Sarah on the 1891:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Sarah Hopwood
Spouse Name: James Hale - carpenter
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 15 May 1853
Parish: Canonbury St Paul
Borough: Islington
Father Name: William Hopwood
Spouse Father Name: William James Hale
Register Type: Parish Register

Can't say if it's right or not, but a tree on Ancestry has this attached to James WILLIAM Hale, who died in 1872.

I may be wrong, but this 1891 is a possible. His occupation matches the 1901 and birthplace of Barnsbury is in the borough of Islington:

HALES, Sarah Head Widow F 62 1829 Shepreth, Cambridgeshire
HALES, William Son Single M 19 1872 Horse Keeper Barnsbury, London
PRESTON, George Boarder M 6 1885 Scholar Barnsbury, London
JENKIN, Samuel Boarder Single M 25 1866 Sack Maker Barnsbury, London

Piece: 161 Folio: 143 Page: 36
Registration District: Islington
Civil Parish: Islington

Address: 29, Hollingworth Street, Islington, London County: London

The middle initial on the 1901 could tie in with the births Sylvia posted:

HALES, William J Head Married M 29 1872 Ostler Islington, London
HALES, Louisa Wife Married F 28 1873 Islington, London
HALES, Louisa Daughter F 10 1891 Islington, London
HALES, Beatrice A Daughter F 8 1893 Islington, London
HALES, William J Son M 6 1895 Islington, London
HALES, Martha Daughter F 4 1897 Islington, London

Piece: 201 Folio: 71 Page: 36
Registration District: Islington
Civil Parish: Islington

Address: 43, Brand Street, Islington County: London

Youngest daughter could be named for his mother.

William's name mistranscribed on marriage:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Louisa Woodman, of 19 Wingfield Street
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Age: 19
Spouse Name: William Holes, a carman of 68 Marsted? Road
Spouse Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Dec 1892
Parish: Walworth Common
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Thomas Woodman - Deceased
Spouse Father Name: William Holes - Deceased
Register Type: Parish Register

Neither married before.

Witnesses: Samuel George Sudlow and Emma Frances Eagles?

EDIT: a Samuel George Sudlow married an Ada Alice Woodman in 1888 so was a brother-in-law. Have found an Emma Frances Eagles but not established a relationship to bride or groom yet (was hoping it might provide a link).

???

Martha and Samuel, 1861 Census

Name Age
Samuel Hales 27
Martha Hales 26
Samuel Hales 3
Frederick C Hales 1


1871 Census

Name Age
Martha Hales 36 Widow
Samuel Hales 13
Frederick Hales 11
Benjamin Hales 8
Joseph Hales 5
Charles Clapperton 68 Boarder



1881 Census

Name Age
Martha Hales 46
Benjamin Hales 18
William Hales 8 b.ca 1873, Lambeth, Surrey
Henry Hales 8 b.ca 1873, Lambeth, Surrey




This birth registration has me wondering ..................


Births Sep 1873 (>99%)

Hales George Wandsworth 1d 540
Hales William James Wandsworth 1d 540


IF the brother Henry was given the name George on registration, but that was replaced by Henry at baptism, or Henry was added as a second name ???????????????


These are the only two Hales that I can find registered in the same quarter in the same place in London that seem to possibly fit the requirements!




sylvia

Just playing around, to see if I can find anything


I assume this is the marriage of Martha Fisher to Samuel Hales .............


Marriages Dec 1856 (>99%)

Fisher Martha St Saviour 1d 2
Hales Samuel St Saviour S 1d 2


from familysearch ................


Samuel Hales, "England, Marriages, 1538–1973 "

Name: Samuel Hales
Birth Date: 1834
Birthplace:
Age: 22
Spouse's Name: Martha Fisher
Spouse's Birth Date: 1835
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age: 21
Event Date: 13 Oct 1856
Event Place: Christ Church,Southwark,London,England
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M02070-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 384912, 384913, 384914, 384915, 6026046
Reference ID:
Sources


Citing this Record

"England, Marriages, 1538–1973 ," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N2P3-VPX : accessed 20 Apr 2013), Samuel Hales and Martha Fisher, 13 Oct 1856.



sylvia

Wendy has this death in her tree on Ancestry

Deaths Sep 1865 (>99%)
Hales Samuel Wandsworth 1d 284

As Sylvia says - your real name IS Hales because that is what William's name was (even if his father was not a Hales)

Jude