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I have now received all the certificates and the plot thickens! But I think I may have gone as far as I can :-(

For starters...I think I have found the deaths of father, John, in July 1830 and mother, Harriett, in January 1834. Both in Hanley Castle. Obviously both are a guess but the ages fit and the location fits. It would explain why I can't find either of them in any of the censuses and it would explain (quite neatly) why I have had difficulty finding any of the children in 1841 given they were between 8 and 23 when orphaned.

But back to George....working back from the 1851 census where George, a shoemaker, is living with his wife Elizabeth born Headcorn Kent. So the marriage in Brighton to Elizabeth Clark shows them both to be of full age. He was described as a private in the 16th Royal Lancers and his address prior to the marriage looks like "Greenwich" in the county of Suffolk.

So in her remarriage in 1859 in Hanley Castle to George William Leacey she claims to be widowed.

There are two deaths for George Hyde in Upton (the parish which would included Hanley Castle) that would fit with her widowhood but I can't find them on FMP to get any idea of the age. But I still believe he left for Australia where he married as a bachelor to Sarah Cooke in 1858.

I guess I'll never prove or disprove any of this.....how did George go from being a Lancer to a shoemaker? The 16th Lancers were at the Battle of Aliwal in 1846 - was George there? When did he join? Oh for a magic mirror that would let me go back to the time between Harriet's death in 1834 and George leaving for Australia in 1853/4 - I still can't find an emigration for him allegedly arriving on the William Money in 1854

Jude

OK I have ordered the certificate for George's marriage to Elizabeth and Elizabeth's to William Leacey....will update accordingly.

Meanwhile trying to bottom out the other siblings....

I have Elizabeth (1824) up to the 1901 census

Name: Elizabeth Hyde
Age: 76
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Malvern Wells, Worcestershire, England
Civil Parish: Nottingham
Town: Nottingham
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England

But I can't find her in 1911 or a death to match.

and so the unresolved siblings...

starting with the two I am least hopeful for because of the unbelievably common names..

Jane born Alfrick and Lulsley Worcestershire in 1816

John born Lower Mtton 1825

But then there's Henry... I have a christening Date 28 Sep 1823 Christening Place Astley, Worcester, England Father's Name John Hyde Mother's Name Harriet

And then nothing....

I have discounted Henry married to Elizabeth (Probert) but remain open to convincing otherwise...

Jude

Still talking to myself..

ather: Philip Leacey
spouse: Elizabeth Hyde
other: Jonathan Clarke
Name George William Leacey
Birth Date
Birthplace
Age
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Hyde
Spouse's Birth Date
Spouse's Birthplace
Spouse's Age
Event Date 07 Jul 1859
Event Place Malvern Wells, Worcester, England
Father's Name Philip Leacey
Mother's Name
Spouse's Father's Name Jonathan Clarke

Oh the embarrassment bigamists both :-)

OK so maybe I am adding 2+2 and making 5 :-)

Elizabeth Clark baptised Headcorn Kent 03/10/1818 daughter of Jonathan and Ann Clark

Elizabeth Clark daughter of Jonathan Clark married George Hyde son of John Hyde in Brighton 14/11/1848

Am going to send for this certificate.........but everything points to they married....he emigrated alone...he remarried (lying about status and bigamously) she remarried...bigamously :-S

I also relaise I am answering my own questions which I know is definitely the first sign of madness.......:-)

omg the mystery deepens...

In 1881 and 1891 censuses Charlotte is with Elizabeth and is shown as her STEP daughter.

In 1851 I have found Charlotte and Hannah with parents George W and Charlotte Leacey in Hanley Castle.

And then in 1859 I find this...

Marriages Sep 1859 (>99%)
Hyde Elizabeth Upton 6c 363 Scan available - click to view
Leacey George William Upton 6c 363 Scan available - click to view

So........did she live with George but not marry him? And then he left without her, she married using her "married" name.....

He died 1860...

OK sort of back to square one!!!!!

I gave up waiting for my new contact to send me a copy of the 1858 marriage certificate and so I googled where to buy Australian certificates and have managed to download an image.......

So 23 April 1858 George Hyde BACHELOR son of John Hyde and Harriet Gale born Worcestershire England aged 34 married Sarah Cooke, spinster, daughter of John Cooke and Jane McGilam (?) aged 27 born Armagh.

So it's definitely my George. He has lied about his age - he was five years older I am sure. Did he lie about his status?

I can't find a marriage between George Hyde and Elizabeth that would account for the wife on 1851 census.

I can't find a death for an Elizabeth Hyde before he emigrated in 1854.

I can find an Elizabeth Leacey in Hanley Castle in 1861 - widowed - with two children Hannah (1849) and Charlotte (1851) both born Hanley Castle. I can't find her in 1851. She was born in Headcorn Kent.

I find it hard to believe that there were two Elizabeths born in Headcorn Kent in the same year who found their way to Hanley Castle in Worcestershire. So I am starting to try and prove Elizabeth Hyde 1851 and Elizabeth Leacey 1861 are one and same....I can find her and the girls up to 1901.

Thoughts everyone? All input gratefully received!!!!!

Jude

This post is now 22 months old and just this week I have had some input from someone in George Hyde's family which blows a lot of the thread out of the water!

I said "Can't find him in 1841 census but found what I thought was him in 1851 with wife Elizabeth (born Headcorn Kent). Freebmd Marriage record that supported this...to Elizabeth Parson in Maidstone Q3 1839. Then they disappear."

But then when I purchased the marriage certificate he hadn't married Elizabeth so I discounted this 1851 cenus.

So this week I have been told:
George Hyde arrived in 1854 on the "William Money" as an unassisted migrant.
He was a shoemaker
On 23 April 1858 he married Sarah Cooke in Belfast Victoria Australia (a copy of the certificate is being sent to me)
Sarah Cooke arrived as an unassisted migrant on the Bloomer in August 1854, aged 23 (I have since found she travelled with a William aged 26 and Elizabeth aged 1. My contact believes William may be her brother). She was born in Newtown Hamilton Co. Armagh around 1830.
George died 02 August 1881 in Warnambool
Sarah died 21 February 1915 in Mortlake.
They had eight children.

So it looks as if that 1851 census WAS him....but what happened to Elizabeth? Did she die? Did he leave her behind? Did she travel with him and then die?

I can't find anything on Sarah in Ireland - does anyone have any idea of where I can look?

When the certificate gets to me I will update with his status on it although as he stated he was 31 when he must have been nearer 40 it might have to be taken with a pinch of salt!

Hi All

thought and thought and thought about this until my brain hurts....:-)

checked out death records in Oz and found one for Sarah Hyde father unknown in 1887...that's my fave for the mo. There are two other Sarah's that pop up - Cook and Newton both married to Georges....drat for it being such a common name!

My only other thoughts are that the census Flip found with Mary 1776 is the wife of John/James' brother - if John/Hannah is a correct assumption there is a brother Thomas born in 1780.

I might have a new post soon - I sent for four marriage certificates and three have arrived. One was George's marriage..one was my great grandparents (whose details I already knew)..one was for my parents-in-law who have been married 60 years this year and I need a copy to get a card from the Queen...and the one that hasn't arrived might just pose more questions than it answers...:-) which of course is why we are all here!

Happy New Year!

Jude

Flip..missed this one...yes I have gone for John and Hannah as parents...I have a 1772 wedding to Hannah Page that fits. And in real guess territory O have a borther Thomas to John and parents george and Mary Voysey. I just stuck them in my tree to see if they brought up any connections....

OK so I have digested and here are my cogitations - which may be the last I make!

First some general background info. I started out on my tree knowing nothing beyond my grandparents.I also concentrated on direct ancestors without branching out to siblings. Where the Hydes are concerned I foundered very early on. I connected with someone who is the daughter of my mother's cousin. And I took her info as given (bad mistake). I spent the next four or five years looking for Harry Hyde to no avail. And then one day I was talking to my mum who is now 86 and she suddenly countered "but my grandad's name was Bill". And William it was. I then found William 1855 easily and his parents William 1826 and Mary Ann (Evans) - I have their marriage certificate. So from that I have William's father as John And I found the christening record in Malvern Hills with John and Harriett.

Flip -" If your original post for the marriage for John & Harriett is correct, there is also a marriage for John Hyde to Harriet Mucklow 7/12/1820 in Astley, Worcestershire" So this was my first "tack". But I connected with someone (on another site ha ha) who had loads on Harriet Mucklow. It seems she and John emigrated to the USA in 1832. At first I thought maybe they had left William with relatives but my contact advised that (a) they had children in 1821 and 1826 - neither named William - and (b) they had a child in 1841 who they named William. So on that basis I discounted them.

Lesley "I might be barking I often am "...how on earth do you know I have viewed this record before ;-) I wonder which site that was then.....
I have to dig deep and think what the outcome with this was....and for the life of me I can't. I have a vague notion at the time that I thought Tann was the married name of Mary Ann 1821-ish but I later found that to be Tansley.

From a thread on William and Mary, I found what I have listed as siblings.

Flip...There is also a Henry Hyde 28/9/1823 Astley, Worcester, with John & Harriett as parents, but not on your list...I am sure I had him down to put onto my trees...he looks sound.
And Flip...There's a chistening 30/10/1821 Salwerpe Worcester for Elizabeth Sarah Hyde, parents John & Harriett Hyde and another 7/11/1824 at Little Malvern Worcester, parents John & Harriott. I'm assuming you are taking the 2nd one as yours, as this was the same place as William in 1826.

Yes I have gone Elizabeth 1824...and I have found her with sister Mary Tansley in later censuses..she never married seemingly.

The earlier birth ties in with the John/Harriet Mucklow child....and there's this death before they emigrated

name:Elizabeth Sarah Hyde
gender:Female
burial date:13 May 1831
burial place:Astley, Worcester, England
indexing project (batch) number:I04360-0
system origin:England-EASy
source film number:350584


And Flip...your final two spanners....Just to throw another spanner in the works, I can place a second George Hyde in Hanley Castle in 1820. You have your family there, christening children George in 1818 and robert in 1822. - suspect this is the George I find with an Elizabeth from Kent that lead me to the wrong spouse....

There was also a christening for a Mary Ann Hyde 10/9/1820 in the same parish, her parents were George Hyde and Harriet. I wonder if John Hyde had a brother George and also a son of the same name?
I have never found a birth record for Mary Ann who married William Tansley....I wonder if this is an inputting error...it fits so nicely with my Mary Ann!

So the only really grey area for me is the 1858 marriage to Sarah Cook(e) which features unsubstantiated in a few other tress. I have messaged one to ask where it came from? There is a Sarah Hyde who died 1915 (born ca 1820) in the same place as George died - Mortlake Victoria. No maiden name. But if that is true...then the marriage to Wm Sutton isn't kosher....and it means that both she and George were widowed very young!

Phew that's enough for now...taking down decs time

:-)

Will digest this in full and respond tonight! John and Harriett Mucklow - thought these were mine for a long time but they emigrated to America (when William was seven) and promptly had a son called William. So discounted them!

Jude

Ok, last offering for the night I'm off to bed.

Just to throw another spanner in the works, I can place a second George Hyde in Hanley Castle in 1820. You have your family there, christening children George in 1818 and robert in 1822.

There was also a christening for a Mary Ann Hyde 10/9/1820 in the same parish, her parents were George Hyde and Harriet. I wonder if John Hyde had a brother George and also a son of the same name?

There are just too many Harrietts around!

Jude,

If your original post for the marriage for John & Harriett is correct, there is also a marriage for John Hyde to Harriet Mucklow 7/12/1820 in Astley, Worcestershire. That may account for the 2 Elizabeths, and Henry, but it could also put 2 couples of the same name in the same area.

Our posts crossed. Bearing in mind their oldest Jane was christened Alfrick & Lulsley, there is a birth for John Hyde 19/5/1782 in the same parish, parents John & Hannah. I wonder if Mary on your 1841 census was John's sister or sister in law?

Did they have 2 children called Elizabeth??

There's a chistening 30/10/1821 Salwerpe Worcester for Elizabeth Sarah Hyde, parents John & Harriett Hyde and another 7/11/1824 at Little Malvern Worcester, parents John & Harriott. I'm assuming you are taking the 2nd one as yours, as this was the same place as William in 1826.

There is also a Henry Hyde 28/9/1823 Astley, Worcester, with John & Harriett as parents, but not on your list.

So did the first Elizabeth die, I can't see a death, or was there another couple John and Harriett Hyde?

I'd better not say which free site this is from, I'm not religious enough.

I might be barking I often am
:-D :-D :-D

HIDE, Mary F 65 1776 Worcestershire VIEW [You have previously viewed this record]
HIDE, George M 25 1816 Worcestershire VIEW [You have previously viewed this record]
HIDE, William M 15 1826 Worcestershire VIEW [You have previously viewed this record]
TAIN, Richd M 25 1816 Worcestershire VIEW [You have previously viewed this record]
TAIN, Elizabeth F 30 1811 Worcestershire VIEW [You have previously viewed this record]
TAIN, Ann F 1 1840 Worcestershire VIEW [You have previously viewed this record]
Piece:
1195 Book/Folio:
12/8 Page:
11 Registration District:
Droitwich Union

Civil Parish:
Dodderhill Municipal Borough:
Address:
Broad Alley, Dodderhill, Elmbridge County:
Worcestershire

I agree with your siblings, but wasn't suggesting the other Hyde's on the census were their children but possibly John's brother & sister or sister in law.

If William was their youngest (1826) all their children may have left home by 1841. Have you located any of the children in 1841, or any of the others getting married? I just have the feeling there may be 2 George Hyde's confusing the issue here, but can't figure out how.

You say she was the Sarah that emigrated with him, but did it give any mention of her maiden name, or were there any ages given on the emigration or death? Sorry I don't have a sub for the right sites to do the searches.

Keep up the PC image, don't gag every time you have to type "another" site!

No not checked that one out...I am as sure as I can be that the siblings are correct....there are just lots of little pointers in children born to all of them.

still think John = James/Jas

There is a John & Harriott Hyde in Britannia Square, Claines, Worcerter both age 40 - have you checked that? With them is Edwin 30, Emma 30 & Maria 25. But there are no relationships as you know

Yes it's hard to tell....both widowed in 1839 according to marriage certificate...which means - if it is my George - that he married very young and she died pretty quick!

John/Jas/James - could be one and same....all of the birth/christening records I have found refer to him as John. But the Australia death index and this marriage certificate refer to him as Jas/James.

The constant is Harriett Gale. And the other children John/Harriett had definitely are connected form the Gale references.

Lack of census finds 1841 doesn't help one jot. Never find Harriett and John/James/Jas...