Find Ancestors

MC,Jonesey.
May I refer you to my original posting of 20/07 20.59 where I specificily asked for help in traceing my Grandfather John Gordon,and that the only concrete evidence I had was in the 1901 census.I did not ask for any help with the White side of the family as I already had the information required.
As I explained to Jonesey,sometime ago I obtained a certificate for the birth of a J.G.(bxce 340406) In July1869 Mother Catherine Father Henry registered in Croydon I did not mention this to you at the time because I was still not convinced that I had the right J.G.and I am still trying to get the evidence to prove this one way or the other. One of the big problems was(still is) that I do not know the names of JG's parents.
The only other confirmed thing I can tell you is that I have my Grandmother's(Annie Louise) death cert.(1902) and that J.G.was present at her death.
I hope this has not wasted too much of your time.
Peter.
.

MC,

I can only agree. Hopefully the next time that Peter needs help on here he will bear that fact in mind.

Peter, you know it would have saved us wasting some time looking up records if you'd said at the outset exactly what you already knew & had certificates for!

to MC:-Yes! this is the right connection(Annie Louise, alias Kitty ,Micheldever) And your 1891 census is correct. l have all the relevent certs.of White family.

Have ordered a birth cert. for Nellie ada Gordan & marriage cert.for John C.W.Gordon. Hopefully will bring some new light on to the other family Connection.

Joansey:-The Annie on the 1871 census I don't think has anything to do with Annie Louise , Ann Hayter(d.o.b.1848) who became Anne White AL's mother would not have been married to Thomas White then

Also Violet ( My Auntie Vi ) I can confirm that she did die on 08/09/1980 at Albury Surrey

Have exhausted enquries in the USA ref :John C W Gordon ( Millmington Delaware )

Goodnight intrepid Researchers!

Jonesey & Chrissie, you've done some great detective work.

It just goes to show what people will take on face value without digging deeper.

Ozi

ah, Jonesey, Ancestry trees :-)

the usual idiots accepting the usual idiotic 'hints' from that great big tree of the whole wide world, I wager !


you know I really have not made any sense of this Kidley connection but I do wonder about this person

Births Jun 1890
Kidley John William Monmouth 11a 34


I see no later record for him ... mind, I also see no birth for

Name: William J Kidley
Birth Date: abt 1890
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1954
Age at Death: 64
Registration district: Ledbury
Inferred County: Herefordshire
Volume: 9a
Page: 58


just a red herring probably

......... yes, 1901, William Kidley with parents John and Fanny, toss him out



this is meant to be the person of interest to us ? ........ seems to have married 1918 Clutton and 1949 Ledbury

Name: John C W Gordon
Birth Date: abt 1890
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1965
Age at Death: 75
Registration district: Pontypool
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 8c
Page: 240


it certainly would be more fun here if Peter got some certificates !

Chrissie,

I concur with your comment regarding Peter needing to obtain copies of the certificates for "the other family" members if only to try to discover whether the children's father was likely to be the same John Gordon who Peter believes was his grandfather.

Annie Louisa White Born Abt 1875 - Micheldever, Hampshire appears in 8 family trees on Ancestry. Out of the 8 only one shows her to have a spouse who is shown as John Gordon, born Mitcham in 1867. That tree also has what appear to be the couples 3 children, Pansy, Violet and Jack.

Whilst the tree does have some census and BMD records attached to the individuals concerned, some of the records attached are, shall we say contradictory. For example attached to Annie who was born c1875 is a 1871 census for an Annie born in 1850. Regarding Violet, her profile indicates her death in Albury,Guildford,Surrey in 1982 but attached is a death index record for someone named as Golevddydd Violet Gordon whose death was registered in Enfield, about 60 miles away. Because of such discrepancies I would be inclined to be a bit dubious as to the accuracy of the tree as a whole. Regarding the elusive John Gordon, the tree has only the same 1871 and 1901 census records as have been found by other contributors to this thread.

well those could be coincidental or not, Wilmington New Castle Delaware :-)

I wonder whether they are just mistranscribed with the more common name Gordon though ...

Name: Lena May Gordon
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 3 May 1889
Birth Place: New Castle, Delaware, occ Labourer
Mother: Ella MMN Morris
Father: John Age 45, birthplace Delaware
Collection and Roll: Register of Births - 2

Name: Lena May Gordan
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 3 May 1891
Birth Place: Wilmington, New Castle, Delaware
Mother: Ellie
Father: John
Parents details as above.

Name: John M Gordan
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 30 Jul 1894
Birth Place: Wilmington, New Castle, Delaware
Mother: Mary MMN Macklin birthplace Delaware
Father: John Age 32, birthplace Pennsylvania, Occ Bricklayer

Name: Robert C Gordan
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 28 Sep 1885
Birth Place: New Castle, New Castle, Delaware
Mother: Mary E MMN Churnside
Father: William A Age 48, occ, Carter

also following on Jonesey's Delaware inquiries

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1672

the Delaware births index, I do not have paid access

searching for surname Gordan births 1890 +/- 5 there are these results

Robert C Gordan date location New Castle name name
Lena May Gordan date New Castle name name
John M Gordan date New Castle name name
John M Gordan date New Castle name name

they do not match mother's name Elizabeth but the father's name is John for Lena May and John M, for John M the mother's name is Mary ( just trying to match guesses )

I don't know whether it might be interesting to look at them

in 1881


Name: Annie Louisa White
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Thomas White
Mother's name: Ann White
Gender: Female
> Where born: Micheldever, Hampshire, England

Civil parish: Steventon
County/Island: Hampshire
Registration district: Basingstoke

Thomas White 38
Ann White 33
Annie Louisa White 6
James White 4
Lizzie White 1


this is the family in 1891 in Pamber, no Annie Louisa

Thomas White 48
Ann White 43
James White 14
Lizzie M White 11
Alice White 9
Charles E White 3


I would guess that this is Annie Louisa in 1891 since she is in the same place ( also in district 4, 4 pages away )

Name: Annie L White
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Servant ( the head of household is a publican )
Gender: Female
Where born: Northbrook, Hampshire, England
Civil parish: Pamber


Peter has her in his tree

Annie Louisa White 1875 Micheldever, Hampshire


too bad you have been playing guessing games ...



Peter you have got to get some certificates especially from the 'other' family

the son Tony that Peter referred to in 2007 was born in 1934 with mother's name Gordon ... travelled to Canada in 1957 ...

I was curious what name Violet had married under ... do not see a marriage to William Newman as either Gordon or White ... perhaps was married before ( she was 35 ish in 1934 )

unless this marriage in Hampshire ?

Marriages Dec 1929
Gordon Ethel V Newman Alresford 2c 517
Newman William C Gordon Alresford 2c 517

Births Dec 1898 ?
Gordon Ethel Violet Kingsclere 2c 237 ( Hampshire )

Name: Ethel Violet Newman
Birth Date: 21 Sep 1898
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1980
Age at Death: 82
Registration district: Surrey South Western ( covers Guildford )
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 17
Page: 1312

Could this be the White connection????


England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915

Name: Annie Louisa White
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1874
Registration district: Winchester
Inferred County: Hampshire
Volume: 2c
Page: 93

** Micheldever came under Winchester registration.

Just for the record John and Kitty Gordon's children, Pansy (12), Violet (11) and Jack (10) are all in Basingstoke workhouse in 1911 under the surname White.

Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image
WHITE, Jack Inmate M 10 1901 School London
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
6289 Reference:
RG14PN6289 RD110 SD1 ED16 SN9999

Registration District:
Basingstoke Sub District:
Basingstoke Enumeration District:
16 Parish:
Basing

Address:
Institution: Basingstoke Union Workhouse With Detached Inprmary Near Basing,
Basing Basingstoke
County: Hampshire

Births Mar 1900
Gordon Jack St. Saviour 1d 146

and just to clear up a point

when you said

'English family:- J.G. Kitty (real name Annie Louisa)'

this was based on ... ?

the only ( possible ) John Gordon marriage to an Annie Louisa is

Marriages Dec 1889
BURDALL Jessie Kathleen Wandsworth 1d 1052
? GORDON John James Wandsworth 1d 1052
Kearsley Henry George Wandsworth 1d 1052
? Samuda Annie Louisa Wandsworth 1d 1052

and I can't imagine a reason to adopt that one


the Treadgust birth and marriage certainly look very plausible

just in case this helps fill any gaps


http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/general_topics/thread/919630

Peter 25 Jul 2007 16:26
I am trying to trace William & Violet* (my Aunt) Newman who spent quite a period of time living in Albury,Nr,Guildford. They had one son Tony who emigrated to Canada & later lived in U.S.A.If anyone out there has any connection with them at all I would be pleased to hear from you. Thank you, Peter White.


*this would be Violet Gordon from the 1901 census ?



http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/general_topics/thread/991460

Peter 9 Jan 2008 11:09
Trying to contact any relatives of my Grandfather,John Gordon c1867,who had family connections with LLangattock-Vibon-Avel,Monmouthshire(1890-1900) and family connections with London(1900-1902). He also spent some time in Wilmington,Delaware,U.S.A.
If anybody out there has any relevent info. I would love to hear from you.
Regards,
Peter.



( no replies in either thread fortunately )

I hope you'll put any more info you find on this thread. I'm fascinated so I'll keep checking for new postings.

Ozi

Hi again Peter,

I am sorry to be a doubting Thomas but if you do not mind me saying so but I think that the link between your John Gordon and the family in Monmouthshire is a bit tenuous. It appears to be based upon two people on Genes Reunited looking for information about an individual called John Gordon. In terms of facts proving that the John Gordon in question was one and the same man, there doesn't actually appear to be any at all from my perspective although I could be wrong, it would not be the first time. ;-)

I have looked again for the births of the children born in Monmouthshire. With the additional forenames mentioned in the copy emails that you have posted I have had more success. I still have not found Elizabeth (c1892) but I have found the registration of the other children's births under the surname Gordan which was how they were recorded in the 1901 census.

Name: Nellie Ada Gordan
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1895
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 45

Name: Alfred Ernest Gordan
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1897
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 31

It might be an idea to obtain a copy of at least one of the certificates to see what is indicated about the father,his occupation ect.

I have also found who I believe are the above in the 1911 census. Both are at different addresses in Monmouthshire working as servants. The surname of each is now shown as Gordon but as it would have been the head of household, not them, who completed the census form it may be that the head simply used the more common spelling of their surname.

I was amused by the phrase that the author of the book used when quizzed about his great grandfather. "In order to give contextual sense to Alf's story I made a number of inferences and imaginative leaps in the dark." In other words what he did not know, he made up.

I still cannot find any record of the son John C W, his mother Elizabeth or the elusive father John entering the UK in either late 1890 or early 1891 if the baptism at LLandgattock in August 1891 is indeed his. I have found his marriage in 1915 and a copy of that certificate might indicate who he considered his father to be:

Name: John C W Gordon
Spouse Surname: Edith A Hudson
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1915
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 61

I love a good mystery so if you do obtain copies of any of the certificates I hope that you will let me know what information they contain.

Hi,

Firstly, No, I have no certificates on that side of the family
My first connection with Elizabeth Kidley was on this sight by her grand daughter who was doing research into JG.
Below is a couple of e-mails sent by her! This is where I got the connection.

The Gordon family as shown above has been confirmed by one of JG's grandsons also according to him JWG was baptised on August 1891 at LLandgattock Monmouthshire

Regards

Peter

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re - John Gordon
I'm afraid I don't know where John Gordon was born. My mother understood that his parents had a market garden somewhere in London. She remembered being on a bus in London(she thought it might have been Clapham) and her mother pointing down a road and saying that that was where her father was born. Of course J G was such a mystery man that he could have told Granny anything! John Wilmington Gordon was my mother's brother and he was born in Wilmington Delaware. I remember Uncle Jack well. He was a very short little man and I understand that that was why he served in the Ghurkas during WW1.


Re: John C.W.
Sorry I haven't replied before. I didn't know anything about the Du Pont connection. I shall be anxious to know if you get any more information. I don't know much about the stay in America. My Mum said that she was told by her mother that they came back home soon after Uncle Jack (John Wilmington) was born because he was a rather sickly baby and things were pretty primitive out there so they thought he would get better treatment back home.


Re: Re: Re - John Gordon
Dear Peter. I'm afraid I havn't got ay further with tracing John Gordon. I was about 5 when my grandmother Elizabeth Anne died so only just remember her. My mum Nellie Ada always thought her dad John Gordon had died until an Aunt hinted otherwise, but Mum never wanted to know any more. I think she was afraid of what she might find out. I only know that her mother remarried to Noah Vaughan under her maiden name of Kidley, so she was obviously not married to John Gordon. I wish I could find mout more about him!
Since my last message I realised Du Pont rang a bell (I'm afraid my memory is failing me in my old age) . Some years ago I obtained a book written by a second cousin David Barnes (the grandson of John Gordon and Elizabeth Kidley's son Alfred Ernest. It is called Black Mountains and is a record of his grandfather's life as told to him. Perhaps you have seen it. In it he states "I know very little about my father but he had worked for the Rolls family at The Grange in Bermondsey, then crossed the Atlantic to work for the du Pont family on their gardens at Longwood House in Wilmington, Delaware, before joining the staff of the Hendre." When I read this book I was very excited and got in touch with David Barnes to ask how he had got hold of this information. I was disappointed to get the fo.llowing reply "In order to give contextual sense to Alf's story I made a number of inferences and imaginative leaps in the dark. We have this interesting Wilmington connection and Wilmington has famous gardens at Longwood and Winterthur which were being established in the 1890s by the DuPont family. It would make sense that John Gordon had been hired to work there." He goes on to say that he has contacted Longwood and Winterthur to see if a Gordon can be found in their records but has drawn a blank.I'm afraid this just goes to show that you can't believe everything that is written.Of course there may be something worth following up and I shall be interested to hear from you if you have any luck. He did also mention in his letter to me that the school admission records for Llangattock School say that the Gordons had moved to the area from Bermondsey.Sorry for such a long rambling message!

Peter,

Received your PM and noted its content.

May I enquire how you first made the connection between John Gordon and Elizabeth Kidley? Have you got the birth certificates of any of the children that you say he and Elizabeth had together, I.E. John(1890) Elizabeth(1892) Nellie(1894) Alfred(1897) to confirm their parentage?

At this stage I am assuming that the 1901 and 1911 census records that MC has found are the ones containing the above children plus their mother. The problem that I have is that the only John Gordon 1890 birth registered in Wilmington, Delaware, USA is the one below:

Name: John Gordon
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 16 Oct 1890
Birth Place: Wilmington, New Castle, Delaware
Mother: Louisa
Father: Auls
Collection and Roll: Register of Births - 1

Firstly there is a similarity between the name of the district of his birth, New Castle (In the 1911 census) and that shown as being the birthplace of those, presumably, his siblings in the 1901 census, Newcastle, Monmouthshire. Secondly I cannot find a record of that John Gordon/Kidley or his mother Elizabeth Kidley/Gordon arriving in the UK between 1890~1893 which is when presumably Elizabeth gave birth to her daughter Elizabeth in Monmouthshire. Thirdly I cannot spot the birth record of an Elizabeth, Nellie (Eleanor?) or Alfred Gordon/Kidley in the Monmouth Registration District 1892~1897. The final complication is that the John Gordon whose 1890 Delaware birth I have found was Black.