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Hi Derek


could you have a look on the following thread and see if you can help John?

www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/records_office/thread/1260001



Thank you!


sylvia

Hello YG.....unfortunately you are talking Yorkshire rather than Derbyshire, which limits my effectiveness.However. I do have one or two other irons in the fire..and am looking into this for you..At the moment i have unearthed a NELLIE ELLIS at Ardsley..not far from Sheffield..baptised11.09.1892 daughter of Frederick and Edith.

There is another slight possibility:- NELLIE ELLIS 26.06.1892 daughter of Joseph and Mary.

I suspect neither of these is yours..and I'll continue..........

Derek.

Hi Gwen.....very likely, with my improved scope..remind me of somewhere to start.

Derek.

Hi Derek,
do you have anymore froggatts for me,they were just abt dwindleing off last time,if not how abt fosters....all best Gwen :)

Hello Joe............OK here is the story more or less in full.

My suggestion that MARY HADLEY had parents John and Hannah was correct and is now confirmed......but is complicated in exactly the same way as the rest of your History appears to be!!

JOHN HADLEY was in fact born in Northamptonshire 17.01.1809..one of EIGHT children of SAMUEL HADLEY 1776-1859 and SARAH nee SMITH 1774- 1847.

He married ANN GOULBEY in Northants28.10.1828..and had four children including a mary hadley born 1828 (which threw me a bit becasue she remained in Northants all her life and died there.

By 1836 he was in Derbyshire and on 13.11.1837 he married HANNAH BIRKS nee HODGSON...........trouble was this was a bigamous marriage because he was still married to Ann Goulbey!!

HANNAH HODGSON of Cjesterfield had previously married ABRAHAM BIRKS 27.10.1829 at North Wingfield.........

JOHN and HANNAH appear to have had three children at Woodthorpe (North Wingfield) WILLIAM 1839 MARY 1842 and SARAH 1844..before moving to Sheffield........Whether these three children were legitimised i have no idea...or how the previous marriage was ended....

JOHN Hadley died in Sheffield 21.August and was buried in a pauper's grave.........

As you know MARY HADLEY married CHARLES SHORE in Sheffield and bore him four children..ANNIE 1860...JOHN 1862..JOSEPH 1864..FANNY 1867.........

Charles Shore was born 25.11.1811 son of John and Jane..and his grandfather was also a John he was one of five children.

By 1891 Charles is dead and mary is living with her two sons John and Joseph..she is shown in 1891 as coming from Tupton..but its the same Chesterfield area...no worries..

Can't find her on 1901..and you say she died 1920 in london.

There is no apparent link betwee this Shore family and William Shore the father of Florence NIghtingale which is not surprising as it is a common name in the area..I will howver check it out.

That's about all i can tell you..Good luck.

Derek

Dear Derek,

Thanks for your reply which I have found, I was looking at the beginning of your thread and not the end!

I believe Mary Hadley and Charles Shore married around November 1858, not sure where. She was born aound 1840, the census of 1891 refers to her being born in TUPTON , There was a wealthy lady, Mary Shore aged 93 there at TAPTON HOUSE in 1901 at TAPTON, not my Mary but maybe related to Charles Shore?

Changing names appears to have been quite common!


Many thanks for your interest,

Joe

Hello Joe.......firstly its WOODTHORPE near Mastin Moor..in the Parish of North Wingfield North Derbyshire......I do have the records for N.Wingfield..but the Baptisms end at 1837 and the weddings at 1860.
However.there is a marriage of JOHN HADLEY to HANNAH BIRKS at North Wingfield 13.11.1837.who MAY!! be the parents of Mary.....but I cannot find her anywhere as yet............do you know where she married Charles Shore?????

I see you mention a relationship between the Shores and Florence Nightingale......I smile, because if I got paid for every enquiry I've had for descendants of Florence Nightingale...I'd be very rich and very famous...........there are no descendants of Florence Nightingale..she never married and she never had children....and she wasn't really a Nightingale.

BUT BUT BUT........you are nevertheless correct to mention the Shores and their relationship to Florence..how much do you know iof the story??

Once upon a time......there was a man called Peter Nightingale called "mad Peter"....who owned a Mill..and he died.......and passed his inheritance on to his family...........trouble was he died without children....so the NIGHTINGALE line died out.............but not quite..cos there was a wily gentleman who was a great nephew of Peter..whi, in order to inherit the estate changed his name by Deed Poll..recorded
in the london Gazette......to WILLIAM NIGHTINGALE...........from............wait for it..WILLIAM SHORE.........he was the father of Florence Nightingale and two other daughters.

SO anybody chasing any familial links to Florence is doomed on two counts....she had no children and neither did the las "real" Nightingale..i.e. Mad Peter...........

The best anyone can do is go back up through the Shore Family..which is quite easy..up to William, and upwards into the history of the Shores...but it stops dead with his daughter Florence......and so does the Nightingale line......

Your Charles Shore may very well be one of those Shores........where did he come from???..cos i have the full history of the Shores.

Derek.

YG Hi...Eccleshall Bierlow is one of thos difficult places that never really made up its mind whether it was in Derbyshire or in Yorkshire..send me your enquiry and of course i'll do my best for you.

Derek.

Dear Derek,

My great Grandmother, born Mary Hadley in Woolthorpe, Chesterfield married Charles Shore filesmith, 4 children , youngest my Grandmother Fanny changed name to Jane born 1867, servant in Somerset in 1881, flowergirl in Brighton 1891 eloped with my already married grandfather, a self made businessman from Cottenham, Cambridgeshire Farming family Fred Smith in 1892 to Paris where first son born, then went to South Africa where they made a great fortune in diamonds and Gold Fields, returned to London where discovered by first wife, major scandal in the papers etc, assumed name of Darrell, in 1891 back in Eccleshall Bierlow near family claiming to be a widow. Grandfather fell out with Cecil Rhodes, first wife died, allowing them to marry after more than a decade together ( I suspect they had a form of wedding back in 1882 in Paris but can find no proof) and two children, two more followed. Fortune rapidly melted away during Boer War. Tried new ventures, early chain of Cinemas pre 1st WW, back to fruit importing and a last crack at Gold in Ghana during war, all to no avail!

Mary Hadley lived with them until her death in Henley on Thames in the 1920s but no records of any contact with her other, more conventional children or any other relatives. Do you have any information on the Hadley family from Wood, or maybe Woolthorpe Derbyshire,there are still a lot of questions I need to resolve. My grandmother claimed that the Shores were related to Florence Nightingale, if so they appear to have slipped down the social hierarchy, the Hadleys were never really mentioned.

My grandmother led an extraordinary life with my Grandfather who was a renowned political orator both here and in SA where he was run out of Kimberley by Rhodes, tarred and feathered, quite incredible! They came back across Mozambique and up the East African coast, with a two year old boy in tow, through Egypt, Naples a mini grand tour before hitting London and Paris whilst their fortune remained they, along with the other mining magnates of the time made a great show but behind the scenes I have the fleeting image of her mother Mary Hadley, always on hand to help with the children and a constant fixture in their lives. Given the social mores of that time I find her more and more interesting and hope you can help flesh out her early history.

Sorry to ramble,

Yours

Joe

Hi Chris..well done!..just shows how protective parents can be of their daughters' reputation!1

Derek.

Hi Derek,

Just to update you re my query on P47.

I've now received the birth certificate for George Columbus Jagger and it confirms for me that his parents weren't George and Elizabeth Jagger as shown in the 1881 census. My instinct was right, he was their daughter Sarahs illegitimate son.

Chris

Hi Derek,

Thank you for your kind offer but I certainly don't expect you to do that. I will persuade my hubby to take me during half term.

It's nice to know that I seem to be on the same wavelength as you regarding the Potts.

Regards

Chris

Chrissie..I am inclined to think that Elizabeth and Mary were indeed sisters..daughters of the elusive Hannah..but NOT related to the children on John and hannah..trouble is that the 1841 census does not give us any clues becasue thye would presumably both have been married by then.................I live in Nottingham but work a few miles from Breedon in Leics.so i might be sble to visit the local Records office........no promises..
Derek

Hi Derek,

Thank you for your reply.

I am going to have to see if I can get hold of the Breedon parish records. My thoughts are that Mary Potts baptised on 5/5/1814 is probably sister to Elizabeth and mum Hannah Potts was still unmarried. Johns baptism (son of John and Hannah) was only 3 months after Mary which is another reason why I'm inclined to think Elizabeth was not the daughter John and Hannah.

It's just so frustrating not being able to confirm it.

Thank you again for your time. By the way, when do you get time to do your own research, you are so busy helping us on here.

Chris

Chrissie..I don't habe the breedon Parish records..but i do have the baptisms for the five children you mention...........common sense says that since JOHN POTTS son of John and Hannah was batised 08.08.1814...it is extremely unlikely that ELIZABETH POTT baptised 01.09.1814 daughter of HANNH..is the same mother......not impossible but unlikely, not impossible because these ar BAPTISM dates not Birthdates. particularly as there is a MARY POTTS daughter of Hannah baptised 05.05.1814............and that MARY POTT daughter of JOHN and Hannah was baptised 17.11.1811............John and Hannah (Percival) were married 1811(15th January)

Derek.

Nudge for Madmeg....

Hi Derek,

Well this is the first of my quieries, Hannah Potts married William Hicklin on 16/8/1824 at Breedon on the Hill. I would like to know what other deatils are given in the records for this Hannah as I am trying to find out if she was the mother of my 3x gt grandmother.

On the baptism for Elizabeth Potts, (my 3x gt gran) 1/9/1811 at Breedon only mothers name, Hannah is given, no mention of father. It looks like Elizabeth had a middle name, possibly Beal. I don't know if my Elizabeth is illegitimate, or if she was the daughter of a John and Hannah Potts, several children of theirs baptised within a few years of my Elizabeth. John Potts and Hannah Percival were married in January 1811.

These are some of the baptisms

Mary Potts 17th Nov 1811 daughter of John and Hannah Potts
Mary Pott 5th May 1814 mother is Hanah Pott
Mary Pott 29th Sept 1816 daughter of John Pott and Hannah
John Potts 8th Aug 1814 son of John Potts and Hannah
Sarah Potts 28th July 1819 daughter of John and Hannah Potts

As you will see, the first Mary Potts was baptised only two months after my Elizabeth which is why I am wondering if there was another Hannah Potts, possibly the one that married in 1824.

When Elizabeth Potts married in 1832, one of the witnesses was a Sarah Potts so I believe there is a connection with John and Hannah. Was John Elizabeths dad or could he have been an uncle?

If any one can solve this for me, I'm sure it's you.

Regards

Chris

Derek, you are a glutton for punishment, but we love you for it lol.

Chris

Hello Chrissie..same applies as wot I wrote to my very good Friend Gooner........try me..no promises..God 'elp us!

Derek.

Hi Gooner...........not by any means as comprehensive as Derbyshire..and i know there were Meahsams in leics.God forbid i should get involved!!.but try me...........I'm going to regret this generosity!!
Derek.